Warrior General Games

Most CBs in the Pro leagues now weren't built to be strict returners.

Most of them wasted too many points in catching, jumping, tackling, and the shut down coverage SA tree.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
Most CBs in the Pro leagues now weren't built to be strict returners.

Most of them wasted too many points in catching, jumping, tackling, and the shut down coverage SA tree.

I guess thats not what I've experienced, but whatever...

Originally posted by PackAttack785
Originally posted by Rage Kinard

Most CBs in the Pro leagues now weren't built to be strict returners.

Most of them wasted too many points in catching, jumping, tackling, and the shut down coverage SA tree.

I guess thats not what I've experienced, but whatever...

I have players on several Pro teams, GM others. None of the CBs have been built as pure KR/PR.

Almost none have capped carrying.
Most have at least 30-35 jumping
Most have at least 30 tackling
Most have points in super vision and shutdown coverage

My Lvl 53 CB is starting at CB in WEPL and is averages 36.2 yards per KR. He is kind of messed up from jumping back and forth from CB to KR/PR throughout his career.

Here are just some of his wasted points
49 jumping (about 17/18 sp)
32 catching (about 7 sp)
32 tackling (about 7 sp)
3 swat ball (4 sp)
4 sticky hands (6 sp)
5 super vision (9 sp)
3 smooth operator (4 sp)
5 shut down corner (14 sp)

That's basically 68 wasted xp. Some of that comes from training which I probably got at a bigger benefit than if I trained something else. I'll call it 50 wasted xp. So as far as KR/PR goes he might be as good as a well built 45, but I doubt it. He's definately not as good as my 27 will be at level 40.

I still see the only advantage of a CB being Return Specialist, compared to Juke, Headfake, and Spin.

Originally posted by PackAttack785
I still see the only advantage of a CB being Return Specialist, compared to Juke, Headfake, and Spin.

The order of the SAs

A CB only needs to spend sp in 3 SAs and they are all at the front of the SA tree.

You should have about 35 xp to spend on SAs. A can get First step, Change of Direction, and Return specialist to 6-6-6(7-7-7) for 36


For the same 36, a HB would look something like 5-2-5-5-3(6-3-6-6-4).

I'll take what I estimate at +7% to speed, agility, and break tackle plus an extra point in first step and change of direction over 3 head fake, 6 juke, and 4 spin.

Good stuff as always, Rage!

I will add that I personally think RS is pretty meh...I made a CB to be KR/PR at one time, and jacked it up to 9...talk about some wasted SPs...no noticeable difference

If I had to do it again, I would pump FS/CD to 5 (6) first, then monitor dot-formance, before pumping RS...

Originally posted by MightyPoopster
Good stuff as always, Rage!

I will add that I personally think RS is pretty meh...I made a CB to be KR/PR at one time, and jacked it up to 9...talk about some wasted SPs...no noticeable difference

If I had to do it again, I would pump FS/CD to 5 (6) first, then monitor dot-formance, before pumping RS...

I think the value of return specialist depends on what your natural speed/agility are.

If your natural speed/agility are only 65 each, then I think 6 in return specialist = 3.9 bonus to each.

If your natural speed/agility are 80/75 then I think 6 in return specialist = 4.8/4.5 bonus

Also, if your natural speed/agility are only 65, then you may not be one of the fastest or most agile players on the field even with the bonus. If your natural speed/agility are 80/75 then that bonus may make you one of the fastest players on the field.

How are you calculating these bonuses?

Originally posted by PackAttack785
How are you calculating these bonuses?

My hypothesis is that the return man SA is a +1% bonus/level to speed/agility/& break tackle. This is not definative, but I know a lot of others who think the same thing.

It could also be a 1% bonus per level to speed/agility/vision (since it says tackle avoidance and that would mimick the bonus zone specialist VA gives)

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
Originally posted by MightyPoopster

Good stuff as always, Rage!

I will add that I personally think RS is pretty meh...I made a CB to be KR/PR at one time, and jacked it up to 9...talk about some wasted SPs...no noticeable difference

If I had to do it again, I would pump FS/CD to 5 (6) first, then monitor dot-formance, before pumping RS...

I think the value of return specialist depends on what your natural speed/agility are.

If your natural speed/agility are only 65 each, then I think 6 in return specialist = 3.9 bonus to each.

If your natural speed/agility are 80/75 then I think 6 in return specialist = 4.8/4.5 bonus

Also, if your natural speed/agility are only 65, then you may not be one of the fastest or most agile players on the field even with the bonus. If your natural speed/agility are 80/75 then that bonus may make you one of the fastest players on the field.

Sounds, like a good discussion, or tools for research...alas, I retired this guy in the first wave of retirements....I want to say he was prolly about 71/68 speed/agility natural before I retired him...

By the way I wouldn't bother with spin, and would only put points in Juke and Head Fake.

Originally posted by PackAttack785
By the way I wouldn't bother with spin, and would only put points in Juke and Head Fake.

truth

Originally posted by Negronic
Originally posted by PackAttack785

By the way I wouldn't bother with spin, and would only put points in Juke and Head Fake.

truth

Head fake only works well against players with low agility. Since all level 45+ defensive players should have a minimum of 70 agility, it is an SA of diminishing returns. Juke does work against players with 70 agility at times, but it is also an SA of diminishing returns as defensive players level up because they not only have 70 agility, but many of them have 62-70+ vision. Spin is definately the best of the 3 at higher levels because it works off your agility, not the lack of your opponents attributes.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
Originally posted by Negronic

Originally posted by PackAttack785


By the way I wouldn't bother with spin, and would only put points in Juke and Head Fake.

truth

Head fake only works well against players with low agility. Since all level 45+ defensive players should have a minimum of 70 agility, it is an SA of diminishing returns. Juke does work against players with 70 agility at times, but it is also an SA of diminishing returns as defensive players level up because they not only have 70 agility, but many of them have 62-70+ vision. Spin is definately the best of the 3 at higher levels because it works off your agility, not the lack of your opponents attributes.

with quick feet and return man, the effectiveness of juke/hf goes up 60%. that seems pretty significant.

Originally posted by Negronic


with quick feet and return man, the effectiveness of juke/hf goes up 60%. that seems pretty significant.

Head Fake - This can be very effective against defenders with LOW AGILITY AND VISION. Not even OR. It is AND. What do you think the base chance of that working against a defender with 70-80 agility and 65-75 vision is. Maybe a 2-5% base chance if you are lucky. So you move up to a 3.2 - 8% chance.

Juke - At least this one says it can throw off defenders especially those with low vision/agility. That means it can potentially work against players with high agility/vision, it just isn't likely to. It probably has a 4%-10% chance against defenders with those attributes. That is much better because that means it moves up to anywhere from a 6.4%-16% of working. If it moves you up from 8% to 12.8% it is worth it. However, what if it only moves you up from 5% to 8% is it still worth it? What if your base Juke chance is only 3% and it only moves you up to a 4.8% chance.