Warrior General Games

One solution that everyone seems to forget about, is that the Speed reduction for Elusive Pass Rushing DEs needs to be removed.

DEs are abundantly faster when going out for pass coverage, than they could ever be when rushing the passer - even when going untouched. This doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Another problem is that we all know Pass Rusher does absolutely nothing. A 30% bonus to Speed/Agility (with natural levels exceeding 85) should be very, very obvious on the replay screen. As it is now, DEs rush the QB exactly the same each down, no matter if they have Pass Rusher VA or not. This has been brought to Bort's attention more than once, but he just made some lame excuse about Elusive Pass Rushing, and left it at that. A 30% bonus is a 30% bonus whether DEs are penalized on Elusive or not. I really don't see the logic at all.

Even way back in Season 6, when DEs were putting up ridiculous numbers, they were not overpowered. They put up very reasonable numbers when going up against evenly matched opponents, yet it was nerfed to shit anyway. Bort gave in to these whiny little bitches on the forum, that couldn't keep up with their shitty builds, so Bort fixed them for them. This set a terrible precedent, that's still going on to this day; and the game really won't be fixed until we resolve it.

This is a video game, stats are a good thing. And anyone that says different just has a bunch of terrible fucking players. I said it back then, and I still say it to this day.

Originally posted by PP
I don't completely disagree with this, but I'd think that the 14 in 1st step would/should do wonders in closing that gap. After all, 1st step is all about hitting top speed faster. Frankly, I think that WR should suck in may ways (ton of balls PDed/KLed/dropped), but he should also be toasting DBs on a fairly regular basis. I also believe that the high agility/fake WRs should be getting open more than in that game (have 2 more games to review before I can pretend to make a definitive statement). If both of those types aren't, everyone may as well just build roll winners from here on out..

CB's with 90 speed keeping up with speed WR's is a big issue as you have pointed out. CB's have been building this way for 5-6 seasons and most of them can get away with man to man with no help over the top.

That's another issue that has been a little better this season. CB's on an island all by themselves are susceptible to being beat with no help, but generally it's because of a fake, although streak routes have made them pay from time to time as well.

Originally posted by Mightyhalo
Originally posted by PP

I don't completely disagree with this, but I'd think that the 14 in 1st step would/should do wonders in closing that gap. After all, 1st step is all about hitting top speed faster. Frankly, I think that WR should suck in may ways (ton of balls PDed/KLed/dropped), but he should also be toasting DBs on a fairly regular basis. I also believe that the high agility/fake WRs should be getting open more than in that game (have 2 more games to review before I can pretend to make a definitive statement). If both of those types aren't, everyone may as well just build roll winners from here on out..

CB's with 90 speed keeping up with speed WR's is a big issue as you have pointed out. CB's have been building this way for 5-6 seasons and most of them can get away with man to man with no help over the top.

That's another issue that has been a little better this season. CB's on an island all by themselves are susceptible to being beat with no help, but generally it's because of a fake, although streak routes have made them pay from time to time as well.





Clarifying, A Pump Fake.

wow, watching that 140+ speed wr was depressing

Originally posted by Bukowski

Even way back in Season 6, when DEs were putting up ridiculous numbers, they were not overpowered. They put up very reasonable numbers when going up against evenly matched opponents, yet it was nerfed to shit anyway. Bort gave in to these whiny little bitches on the forum, that couldn't keep up with their shitty builds, so Bort fixed them for them. This set a terrible precedent, that's still going on to this day; and the game really won't be fixed until we resolve it.


Actually, I couldn't possibly agree more with that statement. We get sooooooooooooo wrapped up in stats and that's the worst thing we can do, IMO. Watch the interactions between dots when they are evenly matched in lvl and quality of build and base decisions on that...So what that a OMG built roll winning WR caught 10 balls in quad coverage, when he not only out lvled the DBs, but he also flat out out built them to hell...Stats and examples from situations like that seem to rule this game, when trying to make persuasive arguments.

Just to show that I'm not pushing an agenda for my direct benefit here, I have way more OL dots (7... 10 if you count my pure blocking TEs and FB) than DL dots (4...and no DT...he's a NT) and 5 of my 8 WRs are built as roll winners, including 3 of 4 of my oldest dots. My team lives on roll winning WRs and I've never made a pure speed burner nor have one on my team. So, my push on them sure isn't in my own best interest...It just defies logic to me (should get open a lot...drop a lot of balls and get a hell of a lot of PDs & KLs, but should get open). I do have 2 fake WRs. So, you could make a case that is in my own self interest....I just like seeing more than one build be able to work well, and WRs is an area where you could make 4 be good alternatives (speed, roll winner, fake and slippery/blocker). To counter that, I actually have 10 DBs...So, it isn't really in my self interest to have WRs do better at getting open either.

Edit: I will be extremely busy for the next 2-3 weeks with rl...I'll do what I can here, but my reduced activity won't be due to not caring any longer

Ignore the troll, PP. Everyone in here who isnīt trolling totally agrees, has agreed for several seasons and is very happy to see these issues being addressed.

great work PP only way to get these things sorted out is by spotlighting to bort.

oh and czman what a douche lol

Originally posted by Bukowski


Another problem is that we all know Pass Rusher does absolutely nothing. A 30% bonus to Speed/Agility (with natural levels exceeding 85) should be very, very obvious on the replay screen.


pass rusher doesn't give a bonus to speed, it gives a bonus to strength and agility.

Not saying it works because I don't think it does. However, I don't think pass blocker works either.

Originally posted by ki11erkiwi
great work PP only way to get these things sorted out is by spotlighting to bort.


czman posts may be more flaming then needed, but he had a good point hiding there :

When testing with "common builds" one may propagate build problem like not enough stamina into sim problem. There should be a more methodical way to generate builds for the test server. Here are some ideas (far from being complete)

1. Super players - Use players with their main attribute following the best slowbuild players out there. But then max out all minors (vision=100, confidence=100, stamina = 100, etc). The idea is to remove these parameters from the equations.
For example to test speed rushing DEs set: AGI, SPD, STR to common sim values and take all other attributes to 100
(tackling, blocking, jumping stamina, vision and confidence)
The opposing OL: will have common sim values for AGI, BLK, STR and all the rest at 100 (vision, confidence, tackling, speed, jumping and stamina)

2. Flat players - All players has all their attribute at some fix values (go for 100, 65 and 30) and some fix vlaues for all SA and VA. This kind of test can help figure out if some position has a clear disadvantage against their opponent. For instance if a all 65 CB can perfectly cover an all 65 WR, you know that for a WR to succeed he must specialize. However if the 65 WR is much better then the 65 CB that is likely a sim problem, since a CB cannot as specialized as a WR.

after testing like this - and similar evaluations that have been done in the past -

I'm starting to wonder if it's possible that attributes beyond 100 act like SA's past 10 - giving lesser and lesser return.

I've thought about this in the past - and I think it's obvious that if you take an attribute like speed and look at the actual speed rate (Deathblade could give a much more indepth explanation than me - because I don't really understand it) -

but obviously the return on speed on some kind of a curve. A player with a speed of 50 is not 25% faster than a player with a speed of 40 (based on the way that the speed attribute is used to determine maximum speed). Likewise - a 100 speed player is not anywhere near twice as fast as a player with a 50 speed.

So - I'm starting to believe that the reason a 90 speed CB can pretty much cover a 140 speed WR is that the those 40 points (between 100 and 140) are offering very, very little return.


And - based on the way Bort seems to think - and since he put in supposedly significantly lessening returns on SA's past 10 - I think it would fit right into his way of thinking to bring diminishing returns past 100 as well.

This would also help to explain why 130 agility vs 68 agility is somewhat negligible in the O/D line equation.

Originally posted by TxSteve
after testing like this - and similar evaluations that have been done in the past -

I'm starting to wonder if it's possible that attributes beyond 100 act like SA's past 10 - giving lesser and lesser return.

I've thought about this in the past - and I think it's obvious that if you take an attribute like speed and look at the actual speed rate (Deathblade could give a much more indepth explanation than me - because I don't really understand it) -

but obviously the return on speed on some kind of a curve. A player with a speed of 50 is not 25% faster than a player with a speed of 40 (based on the way that the speed attribute is used to determine maximum speed). Likewise - a 100 speed player is not anywhere near twice as fast as a player with a 50 speed.

So - I'm starting to believe that the reason a 90 speed CB can pretty much cover a 140 speed WR is that the those 40 points (between 100 and 140) are offering very, very little return.


And - based on the way Bort seems to think - and since he put in supposedly significantly lessening returns on SA's past 10 - I think it would fit right into his way of thinking to bring diminishing returns past 100 as well.

This would also help to explain why 130 agility vs 68 agility is somewhat negligible in the O/D line equation.



Bort specifically said when he talked about SAs past 10 that attributes past 100 have no such built in governors or diminishing returns. Whatever 'reduced effectiveness' there might be is built into the formula and should be just as evident at 95 as it is at 120.

Originally posted by TxSteve
after testing like this - and similar evaluations that have been done in the past -

I'm starting to wonder if it's possible that attributes beyond 100 act like SA's past 10 - giving lesser and lesser return.

I've thought about this in the past - and I think it's obvious that if you take an attribute like speed and look at the actual speed rate (Deathblade could give a much more indepth explanation than me - because I don't really understand it) -

but obviously the return on speed on some kind of a curve. A player with a speed of 50 is not 25% faster than a player with a speed of 40 (based on the way that the speed attribute is used to determine maximum speed). Likewise - a 100 speed player is not anywhere near twice as fast as a player with a 50 speed.

So - I'm starting to believe that the reason a 90 speed CB can pretty much cover a 140 speed WR is that the those 40 points (between 100 and 140) are offering very, very little return.


And - based on the way Bort seems to think - and since he put in supposedly significantly lessening returns on SA's past 10 - I think it would fit right into his way of thinking to bring diminishing returns past 100 as well.

This would also help to explain why 130 agility vs 68 agility is somewhat negligible in the O/D line equation.



There has to be a baseline (I've always assumed there was one anyway) that these attributes work off of.

There is no way that 120 speed could be twice as fast as 60 speed. Thinking in those terms that would mean that say 120 speed is equal to 30 MPH and 60 speed is equal to 15 MPH. If someone ran a 40 in 3.6 seconds, then they would only be running at roughly 22.2 MPH. A person running a 40 in 12 seconds would be moving at 6.8 MPH.

If there were no baseline for speed to work off of and it was linear then you would need someone with 8 speed to run about a 40 second 40 (2 MPH) , however, even at that, by the time he reached 88 speed he would be running at 22 MPH which is about a 3.7 40.

I guess people are forgetting the fact that a defender will burn energy to keep up with, or attempt to catch, a faster receiver/ball carrier.

Granted a WR with speed around 140 should burn a CB with speed in the 90 range but would still need roughly 20 yards to hit top speed. If you notice the WR2 in question started to pull away from the CB around 15 yards out and was wide open around the 20 yard mark. The QB did the usual checkdown and went for the WR1 because it appeared to be more open. The higher agility by the CB also means he can hit higher speed slightly faster than the WR2 reaches the same speed. Since there really wasn't a hard cut the CB wouldn't lose much if any speed in attempting to keep up.

Another thing to keep in mind all that was shown is a deep crossing route and no a fly. Slight advantage to the CB until the WR has enough speed to actually leave the CB in the dust.

How often does a QB actually wait for a target to come open in the 20+ yard range?

Speed shouldn't be something that's variable based on position.

Speed should be a flat calculation for all positions based on attributes, height, weight, sa bonuses, and va bonuses.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
There has to be a baseline (I've always assumed there was one anyway) that these attributes work off of.

There is no way that 120 speed could be twice as fast as 60 speed. Thinking in those terms that would mean that say 120 speed is equal to 30 MPH and 60 speed is equal to 15 MPH. If someone ran a 40 in 3.6 seconds, then they would only be running at roughly 22.2 MPH. A person running a 40 in 12 seconds would be moving at 6.8 MPH.

If there were no baseline for speed to work off of and it was linear then you would need someone with 8 speed to run about a 40 second 40 (2 MPH) , however, even at that, by the time he reached 88 speed he would be running at 22 MPH which is about a 3.7 40.


Actually while working on his own version of the speed script pabst found that: Max speed = Speed attribute/3. So as far as I know there is no baseline for speed.
What actually happens in the sim that players will not be able to reach and maintain a 40 speed due to energy and morale issues.