Warrior General Games

Originally posted by tragula
Actually while working on his own version of the speed script pabst found that: Max speed = Speed attribute/3. So as far as I know there is no baseline for speed.
What actually happens in the sim that players will not be able to reach and maintain a 40 speed due to energy and morale issues.

interesting - thanks - I'd never heard that before

Originally posted by tragula
Actually while working on his own version of the speed script pabst found that: Max speed = Speed attribute/3. So as far as I know there is no baseline for speed.
What actually happens in the sim that players will not be able to reach and maintain a 40 speed due to energy and morale issues.

So if the WR has 140 speed and 80 stamina then he could theoretically hit 46 speed and possibly maintain it for a short time if he had enough agility and time to get there.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
So if the WR has 140 speed and 80 stamina then he could theoretically hit 46 speed and possibly maintain it for a short time if he had enough agility and time to get there.

I tested the 1/3 rule for some players I has access too (about 6 WRs all had Speed below 120) and it seems to work. I do not have any knowledge how (and if) weight and stamina affect (or anything additional). Since Bort stated in the past that attribute are entered into the equation linearly, and assuming weight doesn't have huge affect at these speeds my guess will be yes.

Excellent stuff PP. Glad they made you a tester, this level of transparency is wonderful.

Originally posted by tragula
Originally posted by Rage Kinard

So if the WR has 140 speed and 80 stamina then he could theoretically hit 46 speed and possibly maintain it for a short time if he had enough agility and time to get there.

I tested the 1/3 rule for some players I has access too (about 6 WRs all had Speed below 120) and it seems to work. I do not have any knowledge how (and if) weight and stamina affect (or anything additional). Since Bort stated in the past that attribute are entered into the equation linearly, and assuming weight doesn't have huge affect at these speeds my guess will be yes.

Deathblade's actually said that the 1/3 rule is a bad idea. He's acknowledged that his script has a few rounding errors and other slight innacuracies in it, and multiplying it by 3 also multiplies those errors by 3, which can easily fuzz out any effects for weight and energy.

Originally posted by pottsman
Deathblade's actually said that the 1/3 rule is a bad idea. He's acknowledged that his script has a few rounding errors and other slight innacuracies in it, and multiplying it by 3 also multiplies those errors by 3, which can easily fuzz out any effects for weight and energy.

I am not talking about changing the script. That the observation that you can predict players top speed just from the attribute value. Which prove there is no measurable base speed.
Weight does factor in somehow, but it is hard to figure out since you can only reliably measure top speed for WRs, TEs and speed HBs. However the difference is weight between these players is not very big so someone will need to collect a lot of data to be able to refine the 1/3 rule.

I looked at 7 replays containing the 140+ speed WRs and their speed was always in the 32.5-37.5 area. WRs with speed in the low 120s and high FS can routinely beat this. I don't want to take anything away from the great work that PP has done here, but does anyone have a good explanation?

This seems like a huge issue with this test.

Another possible issue is that the level of a player in and of itself might have an effect. There's a good chance this isn't the case, but it seems worth discussing at least. Can anyone be certain that the level of a player (ignoring attributes/VAs/SAs etc.) has no effect?

Originally posted by w_alloy
I looked at 7 replays containing the 140+ speed WRs and their speed was always in the 32.5-37.5 area. WRs with speed in the low 120s and high FS can routinely beat this. I don't want to take anything away from the great work that PP has done here, but does anyone have a good explanation?

This seems like a huge issue with this test.

Another possible issue is that the level of a player in and of itself might have an effect. There's a good chance this isn't the case, but it seems worth discussing at least. Can anyone be certain that the level of a player (ignoring attributes/VAs/SAs etc.) has no effect?

I noticed the same thing. My 112 speed HB runs at the same speed as these WRs when they're running the route. I've seen a WR with lower speed than these guys routinely hit 40+ on DB's speed script.

Originally posted by tragula
I am not talking about changing the script. That the observation that you can predict players top speed just from the attribute value. Which prove there is no measurable base speed.
Weight does factor in somehow, but it is hard to figure out since you can only reliably measure top speed for WRs, TEs and speed HBs. However the difference is weight between these players is not very big so someone will need to collect a lot of data to be able to refine the 1/3 rule.

I'm sorry, but this argument isn't really going to end well for you.

A player with 10 speed on my script will still hit 8-10ish, not top out at 3. While a player with 120 speed generally hits 35ish. There's a baseline. 120 speed is not 12 times faster than 10 speed.

Do you guys remember the "supporting attribute" rule Bort added a while ago? He said you can't have high strength without blocking, speed without agility, etc.

I think most people (incorrectly) interpretted this as "minors now do more in the formulas", like blocking helps your push on the line, agility for acceleration. But he clearly stated some things about a "2/3" ratio, and if one attribute is too much higher than its supporting attributes, the high attribute "tops out."

With this in mind, do you think that a 140 speed / 80 agility WR, when the sim starts, could literally just be a 120 speed / 80 agility WR? I'm not saying the 2/3 rule is exact, etc., what I'm proposing is that there is a limit on your ATTRIBUTES based on their supporting ones somehow. Just because you add 10 speed might not make you go faster unless you also add some more other stuff...

Any news?

Originally posted by Octowned
Do you guys remember the "supporting attribute" rule Bort added a while ago? He said you can't have high strength without blocking, speed without agility, etc.

I think most people (incorrectly) interpretted this as "minors now do more in the formulas", like blocking helps your push on the line, agility for acceleration. But he clearly stated some things about a "2/3" ratio, and if one attribute is too much higher than its supporting attributes, the high attribute "tops out."

With this in mind, do you think that a 140 speed / 80 agility WR, when the sim starts, could literally just be a 120 speed / 80 agility WR? I'm not saying the 2/3 rule is exact, etc., what I'm proposing is that there is a limit on your ATTRIBUTES based on their supporting ones somehow. Just because you add 10 speed might not make you go faster unless you also add some more other stuff...

No, I don't think it works that way based on some dots I have seen. I've seen a WR similar to PP's super fast guy, and he hits 40-45 on the speed script pretty consistently. He's NEVER been as slow as 32.

Originally posted by Sik Wit It
No, I don't think it works that way based on some dots I have seen. I've seen a WR similar to PP's super fast guy, and he hits 40-45 on the speed script pretty consistently. He's NEVER been as slow as 32.

You have any links by any chance of this WR?

Originally posted by Deathblade
I'm sorry, but this argument isn't really going to end well for you.

A player with 10 speed on my script will still hit 8-10ish, not top out at 3. While a player with 120 speed generally hits 35ish. There's a baseline. 120 speed is not 12 times faster than 10 speed.



So roughly something like:

max speed = 0.25*(SPD-10) + 8
(For players with speed~100 it will hard to "see" the baseline).

up to weight/height effects. One could imagine a positions/level effect too.

Originally posted by w_alloy
I looked at 7 replays containing the 140+ speed WRs and their speed was always in the 32.5-37.5 area

are we watching the same game? the first 8 plays of the game
41.6 - http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325382
40.7 - http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325383
40.0 - http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325384
35 - http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325385
40.7 - http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325386
40.0 - http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325387
40.0 - http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325388
40.0 - http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325389

anything later in the game risks being skewed by morale/energy