Warrior General Games

Still think that the formula isn't heavy enough for the heavier players. a drop of 5 in speed for a guy 300lbs? Perhaps drop 60 to 50? I'll work this out in a second.

x =weight
(attribute-50)=A%
A%(x-180)x .167=y%
100%-y%=z%
attribute x z=final score

x = 300 (85 Speed)
85-50= 35%
35%(300-180)x.167=7.014
100%-7.014%= 92.986
85x.92986=79.0381

If we moved 50 to 40


x = 300 (85 Speed)
85-40= 45%
45%(300-180)x.167=9.018
100%-9.018%= 90.982
85x.92986=77.3347

I think that should be good? Anything more and we could cause some damage at high levels. To test this with other builds: (will do in a second)

190lb WR
x = 190 (85 Speed)
85-50= 35%
35%(190-180)x.167=.0.5845
100%-,0.5845%= 99.4155
85x.994155=84.5

225lb RB
x = 225 (85 Speed)
85-50= 35%
35%(225-180)x.167=.2.63025
100%-,0.5845%= 97.36975
85x-.9736975=82.7642875

265lb DE
x = 265 (85 Speed)
85-50= 35%
35%(265-180)x.167=4.96825
100%-4.96825%= 95.03175
85x-.9503175=80.7769875

I think that works quite well

if you drop 60 to 48 in the attribute modifier

on a 85 speed 300lb

you'd end up with 78.71- 6.29 pt drop

Originally posted by Deathblade
Late to the party...but this would make builds stupid.

O-Linemen with 100 blocking, 100 strength, 60 agility, and 50 speed after this change, would need to have 70 blocking, 70 strength, 90 agility, 70 speed just to be like they are now. It doesn't make builds more realistic, it forces builds to be less realistic.

For things like Strength & Blocking, it would have to work on a curve where high weight/size would start at 100% then decline to a floor.
So a O/D lineman at the low end of size would have a lower Str/Block but take a gain on Sp/Ag,
while a high end size would have a higher Str/Bloc but take a hit on Sp/Ag.

I would consider it the 'Greased Pig' effect.

Originally posted by Skoll Wolfrun
Originally posted by Deathblade

Late to the party...but this would make builds stupid.

O-Linemen with 100 blocking, 100 strength, 60 agility, and 50 speed after this change, would need to have 70 blocking, 70 strength, 90 agility, 70 speed just to be like they are now. It doesn't make builds more realistic, it forces builds to be less realistic.

For things like Strength & Blocking, it would have to work on a curve where high weight/size would start at 100% then decline to a floor.
So a O/D lineman at the low end of size would have a lower Str/Block but take a gain on Sp/Ag,
while a high end size would have a higher Str/Bloc but take a hit on Sp/Ag.

I would consider it the 'Greased Pig' effect.

I wouldn't say block, but strength yes. Blocking is a technique, and shouldn't be quite as affected by size.

Originally posted by johnbarber
if you drop 60 to 48 in the attribute modifier

on a 85 speed 300lb

you'd end up with 78.71- 6.29 pt drop

Check my edited post above yours.

Originally posted by Deathblade
Late to the party...but this would make builds stupid.

O-Linemen with 100 blocking, 100 strength, 60 agility, and 50 speed after this change, would need to have 70 blocking, 70 strength, 90 agility, 70 speed just to be like they are now. It doesn't make builds more realistic, it forces builds to be less realistic.

Solid reality based on assumptions. OT are built to block DE's not built to someone's prototype. Prototypes are only good if they are effective. My OT's already are being built to the second set of specs above. I have been building them to block not asking GLB to change the sim so that the poor unrealistic builds work.

Second if you use the reality test, and an average DE has a STR of 70 then OT's should be about 70-75. OTs test ever so slightly better than DE's on the bench every year although they were totally equal this year. What gives them more power is their weight. The whole mass + velocity thing. If we translate this to the RB side of things RBs averaged 21 reps to OTs and DEs 23 so RB's shouldn't be too far from 70 either. If strength is linear an average RB should be about 63. Now if we use weight as a multiplier, height as a center of gravity measurement and carrying as a divisor to limit a defender's ability to obtain a clean shot, we can get a pretty good representation of a runner. Notice I am not making any comment where the baseline should be only where the relation should be.

Before you say anything about this look at the NFL combine results, your assumptions are completely out of touch with reality. Sadly when 100 people say something is true even though it is obviously false, the uninformed are likely to believe it. Likely not 1 of those 100 people looked at anything before saying it.

Because the accepted baseline in the game for Carrying, Tackling and Catching is about 60 it is a reasonable to expect that it should be the same for blocking. 16 of the 22 positions have a similar baseline. Only QBs and kickers go above that and kickers are purely specialty. The assumption OL should have 100 blocking has no baseline. Blockers block therefore they need a lot of it isn't a baseline it is an assumption.

OL/DL also have the least number of key skills. As such their physical skills will be higher, X/3 is higher than X/4. That alone says the current structure is in need of a push toward reality, where DBs are more agile than DTs. I would add a friendly to Staz' suggestion that the reduction in actual speed/agility be progressive so when it gets to the OL/DL weights it ramps up to make up for the condensed set of physical skills.

Imagine this LB's could now be effective speed rushers which isn't possible now. That's reality.

Weight is the right way to go given the layout of player builds in GLB. The other solutions such as variable soft caps all require too great of a change to the current system.

Agreed. The problem we're going to run into is how much of a curve to make without killing some of the attributes. I don't think an offensive lineman should be able to keep pace with a fast LB, nor a Speed DE in terms of straight line speed. The thing that will save them is the agility, which should take less of a hit (but is also a hairy situation). The fact that OL are defending an area, and should always have the inside is another thing saving them.

I'm not sure how GLB works, but those things should come into play, if I'm not mistaken.

Updated the OP

The weight idea has been toyed with before. Its not a good way to go.

You say that Linebackers can use angles and whatnot on ball carriers and that they aren't really that much heavier than Running Backs.

You do realize that Linebackers are on average around 240 pounds, that's 60 pounds heavier than a 180 pound running back. Quite a significant difference. They're basically half way between the Running Back and the O-Lineman at that point. So the speed necessary to deal with a 100 Speed 180 pound running back is going to be massive. You say they can take angles and you can put your speedy guy on the outside. Its not going to work, angles help but when you're severely out matched in the speed department you're going to be toasted anyway.

Further, in this scenario DeathBlade is right with his analysis, you will have to pump more Speed/Agility into the heavier players than strength. Basically everyone is going to work out to be the way they are now only the numbers in their attributes will be adjusted. Heavy people will spend less in their Strength/Blocking because they have a natural bonus to it and more in their Speed/Agility to make up for the deficiencies they have in them.

Finally, whats the use if the game is realistic through this? So you make Defensive Ends and Offensive Tackles slower, wasn't making them have to spend points in Strength/Blocking/Tackling going to do that anyway? You're solving a problem that can easily be solved with improvements to the simulation with crazy formulas in player building. Its not a good move.

Let 100 Speed be 100 speed and 100 strength be 100 strength. Anything else is going to create a complex web of madness that we sorely don't need.

The thing is, most LBs are in the 230 range, while most HBs are 200+. (Three out of the Four LBs that I have are under 235lbs, and the heaviest one was intentionally rolled to be an ILB. )

223lbs http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=1327629
229lbs http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=1327597
232lbs http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=1253324
252lbs http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=1280026


Plus, you can shift, line up, etc. The running back has to cover more ground than the LB does purely due to the angles. Plus, if you have a 200lb speed back with 100 speed, but only 30 strength, and a 240lb LB with 60 Strength and 90 speed, when they collide, that HB is going to get lit up. It's a trade off. People are always attempting to match builds, but you don't need to do that. When HBs go speed, you bump up your speed, but you use positioning, angles, etc to match them.

This is becoming less of a strategy, and more of a cookie cutter "build this way" type game. So many players are following the same lines because that's the only thing that works. Introducing weight would allow people to go in different paths. Lighter, more mobile offensive line for pass protection? Or would you prefer a heavier, stronger OL for a rushing game? Balance? Same with the defensive line. Lighter for mobility, or heavier for power? You'll get speed DEs and containment DEs, Speed WRs and more possession WRs. Inside, outside linebackers with different focuses.

People act as if this would be included tomorrow, but it's a long way off (if at all). There would be inclusions of the defensive play creator, allowing you to put yourself in better position. Spies, allowing you to key in on a HB if need be. Better blitz assignments (I heard rumors about gaps, if they can get those in), so you'll have more weapons to put your players in position.

LBs rarely ever expect to keep up with a pure burner at HB. It's the job of the CBs and safeties to turn him inside, where his speed is less of a factor. Scout, game plan, etc.

Not sure how this would lead to a web of madness, forcing players to react realistically? We've solved the low skill numbers with a curve, and it's only realistic that the players perform based on strength

It would solve the PB issue of a 215lb RB busting through 250lb MLBs
It would solve the problem of OTs getting burned by DEs running at WR type speed.
It would solve the problem of DTs bouncing around like little bouncy balls

In fact, it would make things so much more realistic, in my opinion.


I just don't see any logical explanation for 285lb DE being able to bust around the OT like he's a cornerback. 100 speed shouldn't be 100speed. I'd be in favor of positional caps IF we weren't already 10 seasons into the thing, and if there wasn't such a weight range in many positions.

I guess I can post my idea here, cause a mod didn't like it enough to allow discussion

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2294131

basically internal positional base attributes to slow down the min/maxing especially in unnatural psoitions.

Does 2 things we might have an issue with in this idea on this thread

1. can be implemented without needing almost a complete reset of the game or screwing over of older players (or getting really complex implementation fixes)

2. it gets rid of the slow build 255-0 issues in leagues because even level 1s would have a base of attributes to be able to tackle, ect.

While I see where you're coming from, I don't think base attributes would work. That wouldn't really make a lot of sense, and be seemingly more complicated than just adding a formula for the physical skills. It'd be universal, and not need to be installed on a per position basis.

3rd page = DOOM

I still maintain the way around these questions isn't to make 100 strength different depending on how much a player weighs, for the reason cited above - it will simply allow larger players to put fewer points into strength and allow them to get faster easier.

Instead, the best approach is one that the OP dismissed - have weight affect the caps. IRL, it is harder for a guy with a small frame to hit "100 strength" than a large framed guy. So...make the strength soft cap 48 for smaller players and 60 for larger players. Meanwhile, the small guys would get a higher cap for speed/agility.

This is THE route to more equitable builds and realism, IMO. The final answer is much more complex, where strength, confidence, speed, agility, etc are all tied tied together, football skills become uber-important to compete, etc, etc - but it all starts by making certain attributes easier/harder to build depending on body type (ie, size and position).

Going to move to epic.

Didn't like the idea at first, and it was very similar to Bort's idea of weight classes that got ate alive. It seems to have evolved into a fairly good idea though.