Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Enkidu98
Alternatively I would like to see Bort consider having a different roll for a spin than a standard break tackle roll.

I think its a good idea that both trees have a break tackle move and if I were redesigning things from scratch and keeping the SA concept I would likely move headfake into the PB tree as it is an easy fake to make and the sort you can make when you are a power type runner.

Since we shouldn't/can't move headfake presently, I still think that the Break Tackle roll for Spin could be changed from the standard break tackle formula. If you make it emphasise Speed/Agility/Carrying and Vision, PB's are likely going to make the roll less frequently than Elusive backs. combobacks may make it a bit more than power backs but still shouldn't make it as frequently as Elusive backs.

That should give Agility more meaning as well as in the present system Agility really isn't as important as it should be.

You can't just change stuff like that around now.

Why would you think it would be OK, to change around the Spin formula, in Season 15?

People have been building towards a set goal for a number of seasons, you can't just mess around with that this late in the game.

That would be horrible, and you would be seeing even more people walking away from the game than they are now.

Originally posted by PP
Originally posted by Bukowski

How can you just decide one day that Spin now works off of Fake AE?

If you do that, you're going to have to allow people to have another chance at swapping around Fake/BT% gear.

As long as you give people the option to swap their AE pieces around, then I have no problem with this at all.

Well, the idea is that PBs get boosts from %BT to SA, LS, PT, Spin and carry/str, as well as a 45% bonus from Bruiser, where elusives only get 30 from QF and % Fake only boosts HF & Juke. It's just massively out of balance that it's no wonder why 95+% of the HBs at PL & WL lvls are either PBs or combos. The deck is just so stacked in their favor compared to pure elusives. That said, I question if enough would agree that change should be made for that part to go through anyway. We in the general GLB community as a whole seem to be mostly OK with PBs being OMG like, the deep passing game being insane with the right WRs & QB, but have major issues with the idea of elusives being OPed. I'll never get that, but I digress.

Buk, you know as well as I do that I've pushed very hard for elusives. The issue that's bringing this to the forefront is that tying just Spin to the slider has made 1 type of build a flat out no brainer. It really needed to be all of the running SAs or none of them. Because it's just Spin and there's no downside to PT, SA & LS, every smart PB in the game is already either using Slippery and running on Super elusive or moving to it. Because of the way it is currently setup, spin actually is over powered on certain builds and that will get a hell of a lot more wide spread next ssn. It needs to be adjusted down a little on the top end Spinners. Not killed by any stretch, just toned down a little on the HBs that are a bit out of control because of stacking it with % gear, Slippery and Super Elusive



You have the right idea, I hope they're listening to you.

I would very much like all SAs tied into the slider, I think that would pretty much solve this problem that most are having with Spin.

But like I said, if it is switched from BT% to Fake %, then a one time option to adjust AE would be the only fair thing. Last season they allowed us to switch AE around because of the % AE nerf, so this should absolutely fall under the same category, just like when a VA is changed.

So if that is what happens, then I'm really fine with that.

Originally posted by HULK
What about this:

1) Slight overall bump to stun length for HF and Juke

2) Sliders:

Slider: -100 to -50
Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder work @ 100% effectiveness
Headfake, Spin, and Juke work at 50% effectiveness.
VA: Brusier (same as today)

Slider: -49 to 49
Power Thru, Lower the Shoulder, Headfake, Juke work @ 100% effectiveness
Stiff Arm and Spin work @ 125% effectiveness
VA: Thunder and Lightning, with each point in it give a 1% boost to faking and a 2% boost to Stiff Arm and Spin

Slider 50 to 100
Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder work @ 50% effectiveness.
Spin, Headfake, and Juke work @ 100% effectiveness.
VA: Slippery: (keep same as before)

Keep Quick Feet the same, not tied to Slider.




Maybe this isn't quite right, but I feel its closer to where you should be heading.



both of the middles should be more like 75-80% not 100-125 because then there is really no reason for anyone to even consider taking the 100 & 50's is there? if you can have both at at least 100 and a couple ablities at 125, why take half at 100 and half at 50? just doesnt seem balanced at all really

Originally posted by Bukowski
You can't just change stuff like that around now.

Why would you think it would be OK, to change around the Spin formula, in Season 15?

People have been building towards a set goal for a number of seasons, you can't just mess around with that this late in the game.

That would be horrible, and you would be seeing even more people walking away from the game than they are now.

It wouldn;t ruin anyone. It would make a bunch of folks who made backs built specifically to exploit an unplanned imbalance in the sim have to readjust. Players near the end of their career.. no big deal, players just beginning, no big deal.

I've had to change builds on my players frequently to adjust to changes and its going to happen. But in cases like this where its a clear problem because the backs designed to use the ability can't use it as effectively as powerbacks/Converted Powerback/Combobacks who are picking a single, late in the tree SA from the elusive tree and dominating with it.

Thats a necessary change.

I have seen it in many different games, where a few people see something exploitable and overpowered and work towards making something that will do just that. Eventually the admins will realize there is a problem, either through their own eyes or by watching massive amounts of players quit the game. When the fix goes in many of the players looking to exploit will whine or threaten to quit if the exploit/overpoweredness is taken away. In my experience I have never seen a player base wrecked from balancing the game, only from failure to correct imbalance.

Change happens. If it does not then a game will become stale quickly. I don't want to come across as coming down on the people who made whatever is getting downgraded. I would look to create the best player I could as well. I guess I am just trying to say, that if you find something that is too good to be true, to not be too upset when it turns out to be just that.

Originally posted by Enkidu98
Originally posted by Bukowski

You can't just change stuff like that around now.

Why would you think it would be OK, to change around the Spin formula, in Season 15?

People have been building towards a set goal for a number of seasons, you can't just mess around with that this late in the game.

That would be horrible, and you would be seeing even more people walking away from the game than they are now.

It wouldn;t ruin anyone. It would make a bunch of folks who made backs built specifically to exploit an unplanned imbalance in the sim have to readjust. Players near the end of their career.. no big deal, players just beginning, no big deal.

I've had to change builds on my players frequently to adjust to changes and its going to happen. But in cases like this where its a clear problem because the backs designed to use the ability can't use it as effectively as powerbacks/Converted Powerback/Combobacks who are picking a single, late in the tree SA from the elusive tree and dominating with it.

Thats a necessary change.

No, it really isn't the same thing.

There has never been an SA that worked off of certaina attributes, only to be switched around to other attributes.

How about we switch Power Thru firing off of Strength/Carrying, to Vision/Agility. That sounds like a great idea.

Originally posted by PP
Originally posted by EagleOtto

x3 bonus is freaking huge, i really dislike huge multiplers like that, make it x2 max.....or whatever, the game is all about staking AEQ/VAs/SAs, and now this....


And SPIN has broken the sim this season, its sad...

Originally posted by blln4lyf

Or you know, just don't use the slider for bonuses at all.

Also, 3 or 4 x the effectiveness? Best be a joke. Give it a 25% bonus at best not 300-400%..when this game going to learn.

I know there's a lot to read here, but come on guys. There are already 2 posts explaining what you're saying isn't the case

In the OP
Originally posted by pp
In reality, this would do that. The idea isn't to give these SAs some massive boost over what it currently is now when the slider is maxing it. It's to find the reasonable lvl when the slider and build is set to max that group, tone it down a little for the combos and tone it down more for those running on the other end. It's not applying a penalty per say, but it is resulting in one.

For example, let's say we have a pure PB....90ish str, 80 carry, 100 speed, with 11 SA, PT & LS. Running on 75 power shouldn't make PT, SA & LS fire much more than they currently do (should be a slight bump, IMO, but that's just because I don't think they're firing off quite enough right now). However, if he has 5 in spin, HF & Juke, they should all fire considerably less than they do now, since ideal firing rates for those SAs were determined by us at the elusive end of the slider.

After Eagles Post

Originally posted by PP

If at all, I'd see it being very small. What I suggest is balancing the SAs for the plus end of the slider and then adjusting down from there...I wouldn't even pay much attention the the x1.5 and x3. those numbers are most likely too high and DON'T mean a x1.5 or x3 over the SA's CURRENT lvl, just that they'd fire # more on that end of the slider than they do in the middle, which fires # more than on the down side of the slider. I just put them out there because they're lower than the x2 & x4 we currently have on spin. That's just too much of a gap from the top to the bottom of the slider for Spin, but I think balance testing really need to show what factor it should be dropped by. No matter what is picked initially, it's likely that it would have to be adjusted.

TLdr version: the x1.5 and x3 isn't saying PT should fire 3 times more than it currently does. It's saying that at 100 to 50 power, PT should fire 3 times more than when running 50+ on the Super Elusive side, and the multiples (x1.5 & x3) are just numbers for now. Testing would need to determine the multiplier values, most likely smaller than I used.


P.S. I'm actually OK with not using the slider at all. I've suggested 5-7 times as the other option on the test server already, though it's pants on head stupid for PT to be able to fire as much when running on Super Elusive as it does on 100 power....and for Juke to fire as much when running on 100 power.
Care to shorten?

Originally posted by Bukowski
No, it really isn't the same thing.

There has never been an SA that worked off of certaina attributes, only to be switched around to other attributes.

How about we switch Power Thru firing off of Strength/Carrying, to Vision/Agility. That sounds like a great idea.

No even remotely the same. Spin is in the Elusive tree. It stands to reasoon it should work better for elusive backs than power/combo backs. That it does not is an issue.

I have a converted powerback who would suffer for the change, and yet I would still recommend it. He'll just switch back to power build and break tackles with power through, lts and stiff arm. He doesn't need 4 break tackles based on the same attribute while the Elusive back gets less ways and less reliable ways, to avoid/break tackles.

Originally posted by blln4lyf

Care to shorten?

can't make it shorter than it already was here

Originally posted by PP

TLdr version: the x1.5 and x3 isn't saying PT (or any other SA) should fire 3 times more than it currently does. It's saying that at 100 to 50 power, PT should fire 3 times more than when running 50+ on the Super Elusive side, and the multiples (x1.5 & x3) are just numbers for now. Testing would need to determine the multiplier values, most likely smaller than I used.

Originally posted by Enkidu98
Originally posted by Bukowski

No, it really isn't the same thing.

There has never been an SA that worked off of certaina attributes, only to be switched around to other attributes.

How about we switch Power Thru firing off of Strength/Carrying, to Vision/Agility. That sounds like a great idea.

No even remotely the same. Spin is in the Elusive tree. It stands to reasoon it should work better for elusive backs than power/combo backs. That it does not is an issue.

I have a converted powerback who would suffer for the change, and yet I would still recommend it. He'll just switch back to power build and break tackles with power through, lts and stiff arm. He doesn't need 4 break tackles based on the same attribute while the Elusive back gets less ways and less reliable ways, to avoid/break tackles.

People pay money for their dots. They are building those dots in a very specific way, to use certain SAs with the attributes that we were told they were activated with.

You can't just change something like that. It is totally unprecedented, even with the season after season of changes that we go through around here, they've never changed how an SA activates, and for very good reason.

i think you're being too specific in your search for a precedent

making a change that takes someone's build from ideal to just above average ... there is definitely a precedent for that

And, the SA activates the same way. The Success or Failure of the move represented by the SA will have changed.

For POWER backs, they'll be less likely to use Spin to break tackles unless their Agility/Vision/Carrying/Speed are at an elevated level (Higher, the better) But they'll still get Power Through, Lower the Shoulder and Stiff Arm to break tackles the same old way.

For Elusive Backs. they'll now be able to actually use spin (and their purchased break tackle equipment etc) and they'll be more likely to have a success because its particular set of attributes should match attributes they should naturally be raising. So now they can Avoid tackles with Head Fake or Juke, and they can Break Tackles with Spin, and all of these abilities use the same sets of attributes.

So, Instead of power and Combo backs being able to build the same way and get FOUR break tackle rolls, they'll only get 3 and a half (because spin would still work for them just not as frequently) and ELUSIVE backs would actually get 3 ways to void or break a tackle and it will work with the way you should be building an Elusive back.

Its f-tarded that one of the last SA's in the Elusive tree can be purchased on AEQ and give a BETTER result to a power back than it does to an Elusive Back who has to work towards it.

That you refuse to see this, and argue against it, tends to make me take your argument as nothing but someone who wants an 'i win' button or its equivalent and isn;t really concerned about a total user experience or game balance.

Also, my suggestion is JUST a suggestion, and its not even really being pondered I don;t believe. While I believe making the Spin break tackle roll use different attributes is a more elegant/logical solution, I think that the other solution being suggested may be easier to implement.

When it comes down to it though, its this.
Power/Combo Back = 4 Break Tackle chances.
Elusive Back = Two Fakes and 1/2 of a Break Tackle chance.

Its not an advantage for an Elusive back to try to take Stiff Arm or Lower the Shoulder or Power Through. They'll get very little benefit from it.
It IS an advantage for a powerback to take just Spin out of the other SA tree via AEQ. (While many also pick up first step etc)

Spinning away from a tackle isn't even a traditional power back sort of move. Why is it powerbacks are setting their run setting to 50 on the Elusive scale to get more spins?

Etc.

Making the Spin 'Break Tackle' effect use Agility instead of Strength to determine rate of success makes sense. When you perform a spin move it is all about speed and balance to cut one direction and then turn your body and spin around the defender who bites on your cut and move the other direction.

Enkidu is right on the money.

I think the whole idea of giving a buff to SA's based on your running slider was horrible to begin with. I could be wrong, but I think this was simply done to give elusives an edge with spin, but as you can see it was just exploited by combo's.

The running slider ALREADY effected the race at which things fired successfully by effecting the angle at which defenders are approaching from. If you think powerbacks shouldn't be able to juke people, then adjust those formulas, don't create some retarded 2x power thru bonus for -100 power. All this does is it makes it so people need a certain slider% to fire their SA, which is annoying more than anything.

If you wanted to make spins better for elusives, you should have just made it a fake last season (or toned down strength and up agility in the way it fires). Otherwise you will end up giving these huge 2x or 4x bonuses to things (even a 50% bonus based on sliders is retarded) and those things end up as the level, with everyone not on those settings getting mega nerfed and worthless.

imo.