Warrior General Games

Discussion of possible changes to spin and tying all rush SAs to the slider.

This is merely discussion and MAY NOT necessarily be implemented.

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Originally posted by PP
1) Tie PT, LS, SA, Juke, HF & OFF to the Slider. If you don't want to put in - #s, just tone the SAs down (if still needed after going from x2 & x4 to x1.5 & x3)

HF, Juke, OFF & Spin
-100.....-49.....0......49.....100
x0..................x1.5.............x3


PT, SA, LS
-100.....-49.....0......49.....100
x3..................x1.5..............x0

So, for HF, Juke, OFF & Spin to get a 1.5 bonus, you need to be running on -49 thru 49. To get the x3 you need to be 50 thru 100. Anything lower than -49 nets 0. PT, LS, SA, higher than 49 nets 0, 49 thru -49 nets x1.5 and -50 thru -100 nets x2

2) Create a Como Back VA each point in it give a 1% boost to faking and a 1% boost to brking tkls, so long as the slider is set to in between -50 and 50.

That way you get a boost for the SAs matching the running style, but take a hit on those that don't. running on Super Elusive and being able to PT as effectively as when you're running on 51 power just makes no sense, but is the no brainer way to build a PB right now (running at least 50 elusive, jacking Spin to get that 5th way to brk tkls and swapping Bruiser for Slippery). If a change like this isn't made, only the noobs will be using Bruiser next ssn

I don't know if ALL the testers agree, but several have said yes and none no. The closest to no was w_a saying he agreed, but was concerned about our track record for balance. He has a point about that. However, I think a lot of that has to do with so often cramming the programming into the off ssn, having just me or DB test the major sim change (whatever it may be) and going live. We start now, actually have more than just 1 or 2 of us test it and we should be able to at least get it better than it is now. Personally, I think it flat out needs to be done.



The part that I think may be tougher to get everyone to agree on is that Spin should probably be tied to fake %, not brk tkl. That way Fake % could potentially boost HF, Juke, OFF (though its restrictions make it not count as much) and Spin, giving fakes 4 ways to fire (3.2ish, really, because of restrictions to OFF). % brk tkl would boost str/carry, SA, LS & PT, equaling 4 ways to brk tkls. It helps balance things.

If everyone can't/won't agree on that switch, at least you could tie Spin to both % fake & % brk tkl, but only to which ever is higher. It'd at least be better than it is now, making % fake more functional. Either way, the slider thing needs to be done, IMO




Originally posted by kurieg
Personally, I would also go back to a much smaller change and then look at it, incrementing upwards if needed. It's not like Offense isn't having a field day in the sim. I mean, jesus, 140+ points scored when two top teams meet?

My suggestion:

-100 -> 100
0 -> 2x boost for Juke, HF, Spin. I don't think OFF needs a boost at all - isn't it already kinda tied in by being a boost to the other fakes? It's not a fake in and of itself.
2x -> 0 boost for Power Through, Stiff Arm, Lower the Shoulder.

VA
Thunder and Lightning - This running back can evade the big guys and run over the little ones. +1% Fake and Break Tackle chance so long as the Running Style is set from -49 -> 49 on the slider.

I don't agree with tying Spin to % Fake gear if you make this slider change. I don't see the need to make it easier for Elusives to just focus on one AE to get all their shit to fire. You're really not nerfing Spin much at all then - you're really buffing it by giving them an added boost to the fakes (since it'll be a no brainer to double stack %Fake). I think a good, pure Elusive with double stacked %Fake, good Juke/Spin, Quick Feet + Slippery + SYM, and getting 2x on the Slider is going to continue to be a ridiculous home run hitter. Make them split their gear or continue to make trade-offs between which they buff more, the fakes or the %Break tackle.

Originally posted by kurieg
Another suggestion is just to make Slippery a %Fake boost and not a %break tackle.



Originally posted by Enkidu98
I think the slider should provide a negative if you are attempting the 'opposite' of what the slider setting is set for.

So, if you are set for power, you get a bonus to tackle breaking but a penalty to fakes etc. If you are set for Elusive running you get bonuses to the fakes and spin but a penalty to the other breaking tackle rolls.
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Originally posted by Mat McBriar
My issue with these sliders is that there isn't enough reason to turn away the max/mins. The gap with the bonus needs to be much much smaller. x3 is too high. I know you said you're flexible on the slider bonuses PP, but I want to make it clear that this should be a small differential when comparing say +100 and +50 on a fake-based RB.

What you're doing otherwise is balancing the SA frequencies at the top bonus, leaving elsewhere weak/underpowered. Comparatively 2.25x (bonus at +50 assuming a linear increase) and 3.0x are going to be very different, which I don't think is right. There needs to be a legit justifiable reason to use +50.

To achieve what you want, we may want to look at the bonus operating differently from -100 to -50 as compared to +50 to +100. The way I envision it:

From -100 to -50
LTS/SA/PT - linearly increasing bonus the closer you get to -100
HF/J/SP - exponentially increasing penalty the closer you get to -100

From -49 to 49
No bonus or penalty

From +50 to +100
LTS/SA/PT - exponentially increasing penalty the closer you get to +100
HF/J/SP - linearly increasing bonus the closer you get to +100


I do agree that we should alter Spin to a fake (lowering strength's influence in the formula), just labeling it as more of a "juke-spin" (fake one way, spin the other).

Originally posted by PP
yeah, I don't care what the "bonus/penalty" is, so long as it's enough to make someone with 11 PT and 11 HF think REALLY hard before deciding to go off of combo and they pay a price for it, as well as get a bonus. That's the real problem with the current setup. there's flat out absolutely no reason for every HB in the game to run on anything buy Spuer elusive, even if they only have 4 spin and 11s in PT, SA & LS. Frankly, no matter what we select to start with, I'm sure our testing will result it it needing to be tweaked anyway.

Additional discussion since the above:



Originally posted by kurieg
Personally, I would also go back to a much smaller change and then look at it, incrementing upwards if needed. It's not like Offense isn't having a field day in the sim. I mean, jesus, 140+ points scored when two top teams meet?

My suggestion:

-100 -> 100
0 -> 2x boost for Juke, HF, Spin. I don't think OFF needs a boost at all - isn't it already kinda tied in by being a boost to the other fakes? It's not a fake in and of itself.
2x -> 0 boost for Power Through, Stiff Arm, Lower the Shoulder.

VA
Thunder and Lightning - This running back can evade the big guys and run over the little ones. +1% Fake and Break Tackle chance so long as the Running Style is set from -49 -> 49 on the slider.


Originally posted by PP
I agree completely in theory with what you're suggesting above. In the end result, I don't think the boost to anything should be much more than it is now, if at all. I could see when running with the slider optimized for the SA, them firing around 10% more for the power SAs and maybe 10-15% for the HF & Juke than they currently do now on the top end dots, but whether they fire more or less should be left to the balance testing we do to determine. On the flip side, they wouldn't be firing the opposite SAs as much and the Combos would be firing them all at a decent rate, but none as much as they do now.

If my math is correct (and it may not be...never been worth a shit at math concepts) The end result would be SAs firing 75% as much in the -49 thru 49 range and 25% as much (compared to when maxed on the slider) in the 0 boost range. The testing would be used to find the sweet spots, and multiple testers/multiple builds should be able to get it adjusted appropriately, without a lot of work from Bort (I'd guesstimate his time investment being less than 2 hrs total, and that'd be just making a handful of tweaks to the firing rates)

I can also completely see your point OFF. Assuming you're correct (and your description does make logical sense, so it most likely is), OFF shouldn't get a boost based on the slider, since it's just a boost anyway.

Originally posted by kurieg

I don't agree with tying Spin to % Fake gear if you make this slider change. I don't see the need to make it easier for Elusives to just focus on one AE to get all their shit to fire. You're really not nerfing Spin much at all then - you're really buffing it by giving them an added boost to the fakes (since it'll be a no brainer to double stack %Fake). I think a good, pure Elusive with double stacked %Fake, good Juke/Spin, Quick Feet + Slippery + SYM, and getting 2x on the Slider is going to continue to be a ridiculous home run hitter. Make them split their gear or continue to make trade-offs between which they buff more, the fakes or the %Break tackle.

Originally posted by PP
I'm breaking this separate because I think we have to view this as 2 separate issues. I believe odds are high that enough will agree with the slider to get that through and I do think that's the most important part of this by far. Add the %BT or %Fake debate for Spin and I think it massively lowers the odds. So, I'd like to see this viewed as independent topics that don't have to both occur.

that said, how is what you describe any different than PBs just needing to get BT% AEQ to get PT, SA, LS & Spin to work, as it has been since AEQ first came out? Even after the slider change, it's a "no brainer" for PBs double stack %BT and they get Spin to fire as much as a combo, where % Fake give HF & Juke. That seems way tilted to PBs and also explains why I doubt there is 1 pure elusive in WL (str under 67 & no %BT). So, to get 3 SAs to work for an Elusive (HF, Juke & Spin), they should spit AEQ between %BT & % Fake, but PBs can get 4 to work by just going % BT?

3 and 3 seems the route to go for balancing to me. They just need to fire at a rate that doesn't OMG them (which is our job to find that balance). That said, I will never understand why no one is complaining about how you can flat out cream Ds the last 2 ssns at an OMG rate with the right WR & QB builds throwing deep all game, but, damn, Spin is out of control (and I agree that it is too high). I'll take that QB & WR built for throwing deep against the best Spin HB in GLB every time, as it currently sits...And I'd bet I win 9 out of 10 times

Originally posted by Kirghiz
I think it is a one or the other change. Either tie the SA's to the sliders as has been talked about, OR separate the % EQ from the SA triggers. I tend to think the slider idea would work the best though.

Originally posted by
that said, how is what you describe any different than PBs just needing to get BT% AEQ to get PT, SA, LS & Spin to work, as it has been since AEQ first came out?

Originally posted by kurieg
Because Spin and Fake stuff attack fundamentally different parts of a D build, whereas break tackle stuff doesn't (whether it's Spin or Power Through).

Originally posted by kurieg
Unless y'all are suggesting that Spin not only be buffed by %Fake gear but also be treated entirely like a Fake in all respects.




Originally posted by PP
Hell, I'll gladly take the Spin % thing off the table then and just stand behind the slider suggestion, as I think that one makes the most sense and is far more important of the 2. Having to give up a 45% boost from Bruiser to try to may spin by running on elusive is a p harsh penalty. sure, you can regain 30% from slippery, but that's still a 15% hit Also, not getting as much out of PT, SA & LS is a price. Add them both together and at least one has to seriously consider which way to go, unlike the no brainer of a choice it is now.

So suggestion


1) Tie PT, LS, SA, Juke, HF & Spin to the Slider. If you don't want to put in - #s, just tone the SAs down (if still needed after going from x2 & x4 to x1.5 & x3)

HF, Juke & Spin
-100.....-49.....0......49.....100
x0..................x1.5.............x3


PT, SA, LS
-100.....-49.....0......49.....100
x3..................x1.5..............x0

So, for HF, Juke, OFF & Spin to get a 1.5 bonus, you need to be running on -49 thru 49. To get the x3 you need to be 50 thru 100. Anything lower than -49 nets 0. PT, LS, SA, higher than 49 nets 0, 49 thru -49 nets x1.5 and -50 thru -100 nets x2

2) Create VA named Thunder and Lightning, with each point in it give a 1% boost to faking and a 1% boost to brking tkls, so long as the slider is set to in between -49 and 49.

P.S. I'm flexible on the slider x#s. I think 1.5 & 3 would be good, but the main point is to make it so going 50 or above provides a significant payoff, 49 thru -49 is still very reasonable and the 0 side fires once out of every 10 runs or so, but no more than that. Really, I think the key will be us testers finding the lvl where they fire off at an ideal state at the high end and then just playing with the modifier at the other 2 lvls.

Edited to get the OFF off the slider, since it most likely is just a boost anyway

Originally posted by Kirghiz
Power SA's get buffed by the power slider, elusive SA's get buffed by the elusive slider.........Seems like the easiest fix.

Edit: you'd also need that combo VA that has been talked about to make combos work in that climate.

Originally posted by kurieg
Unless y'all are suggesting that Spin not only be buffed by %Fake gear but also be treated entirely like a Fake in all respects.



Originally posted by pp
I was going for that, but I'll take it off the table....I think the slider is the most important part, doubt that enough of us will agree with the Spin becoming a Fake and that could derail this to the point of the slider not happening, and I think the slider is mission critical for any kind of a build balance at all.

Hey, if I'm wrong though and enough of you agree, I'm for it. Catch, just pls don't let the is Spin a fake or Brk Tkl debate detract from the slider part. I don't mean to play Chicken Little here, but spin alone being tied to it just is bad in ever respect and needs to be addressed more than any other sim issue for the long term good of the game, IMO. It makes it so there is only 1 smart way to build a HB....Tying them all to the slider fixes it and promotes more diversity than we have had for the last couple ssns....and diversity is fun.

Originally posted by Enkidu98
I think the slider should provide a negative if you are attempting the 'opposite' of what the slider setting is set for.

So, if you are set for power, you get a bonus to tackle breaking but a penalty to fakes etc. If you are set for Elusive running you get bonuses to the fakes and spin but a penalty to the other breaking tackle rolls.

Originally posted by pp
In reality, this would do that. The idea isn't to give these SAs some massive boost over what it currently is now when the slider is maxing it. It's to find the reasonable lvl when the slider and build is set to max that group, tone it down a little for the combos and tone it down more for those running on the other end. It's not applying a penalty per say, but it is resulting in one.

For example, let's say we have a pure PB....90ish str, 80 carry, 100 speed, with 11 SA, PT & LS. Running on 75 power shouldn't make PT, SA & LS fire much more than they currently do (should be a slight bump, IMO, but that's just because I don't think they're firing off quite enough right now). However, if he has 5 in spin, HF & Juke, they should all fire considerably less than they do now, since ideal firing rates for those SAs were determined by us at the elusive end of the slider.

Originally posted by Meatdawg
I like this a lot PP.

My only problem is spin still being factored off break tackle% instead of fake%.

If we can somehow adjust and fix this so everyone is happy I think we would have a very good solution.

Possible solutions:
-Remove D4Y and add spin into the power back tree and give fake backs OFF on there tree
-Spin works off fake %
-Make 2 types of spin. Elusive spin/power spin.

Spins already seem rediculous. Unless there is some form of tackling slider to counter this I'm against it.

Also, If this is implimented I just do see the use for going 70 towards power, or 80 for elusive, or whatever sweet little middle ground people think they've found. It'll pretty much be 99 one way or the other unless your actually trying to make a combo back. All players will either run straight no matter what or constantly juke fake spin!!


[dissappears for 3 months again]

How can you just decide one day that Spin now works off of Fake AE?

If you do that, you're going to have to allow people to have another chance at swapping around Fake/BT% gear.

As long as you give people the option to swap their AE pieces around, then I have no problem with this at all.

Originally posted by TehKyou
Spins already seem rediculous. Unless there is some form of tackling slider to counter this I'm against it.


[dissappears for 3 months again]

Adjust your builds.

Originally posted by Bukowski
How can you just decide one day that Spin now works off of Fake AE?

If you do that, you're going to have to allow people to have another chance at swapping around Fake/BT% gear.

As long as you give people the option to swap their AE pieces around, then I have no problem with this at all.

Well, the idea is that PBs get boosts from %BT to SA, LS, PT, Spin and carry/str, as well as a 45% bonus from Bruiser, where elusives only get 30 from QF and % Fake only boosts HF & Juke. It's just massively out of balance that it's no wonder why 95+% of the HBs at PL & WL lvls are either PBs or combos. The deck is just so stacked in their favor compared to pure elusives. That said, I question if enough would agree that change should be made for that part to go through anyway. We in the general GLB community as a whole seem to be mostly OK with PBs being OMG like, the deep passing game being insane with the right WRs & QB, but have major issues with the idea of elusives being OPed. I'll never get that, but I digress.

Buk, you know as well as I do that I've pushed very hard for elusives. The issue that's bringing this to the forefront is that tying just Spin to the slider has made 1 type of build a flat out no brainer. It really needed to be all of the running SAs or none of them. Because it's just Spin and there's no downside to PT, SA & LS, every smart PB in the game is already either using Slippery and running on Super elusive or moving to it. Because of the way it is currently setup, spin actually is over powered on certain builds and that will get a hell of a lot more wide spread next ssn. It needs to be adjusted down a little on the top end Spinners. Not killed by any stretch, just toned down a little on the HBs that are a bit out of control because of stacking it with % gear, Slippery and Super Elusive

PP,

You can't seriously be suggesting a buff to Power Thru, right?

I get that you want to encourage power backs to run on power tactics, but that SA is already very powerful. 3X boost to its effectiveness? Yikes.

I think you'd be better keeping it where it is if you're 50 power or higher, reduced 10% if you're 49 power to 0, reduced 25% if you're 0 to 49 elusive, and reduced 50% if you're 50 to 100 elusive. Or something along those lines anyways.

I know you're trying to mirror the Spin thing, but if you look at Spin independently of this new slider change, it is less powerful than Power Thru. You cannot give PT that kind of boost. If you do it, welcome to Season 8 the sequel.

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As for the 3 / 4 elusive and power SAs, what about Stiff Arm? It actually, if you think about it, seems more natural with a combo type running style than a power one. Maybe consider a boosting scale on it where it only gets a bonus between -50 and 50? Just throwing something else out there to consider.

Originally posted by Bukowski
How can you just decide one day that Spin now works off of Fake AE?

If you do that, you're going to have to allow people to have another chance at swapping around Fake/BT% gear.

As long as you give people the option to swap their AE pieces around, then I have no problem with this at all.

I've been building a dot since season 7 to specifically be a Spin back. If this is changed, I've effectively wasted 1 year of my time on him. Would suck imo.



I think the problem isn't with Spin. Its fine that there are a couple of different directions to build an elusive dot (faker, spinner, pass catcher, some each, etc). Lets not mandate cookie cutters. Choices are what make the game imo.

The problems, from my perspective, are as follows:
-fakes are not powerful enough when compare to breaking tackles (dots recover WAY faster, still make tackle anyways)
-you can break a tackle without an SA, but you cannot fake without an SA

This is what sets up your inequity between power and elusive backs, more than anything else. If you want elusive backs to be legitimate contenders at top levels, work backwards from these two facts to find the solution.

What about this:

1) Slight overall bump to stun length for HF and Juke

2) Sliders:

Slider: -100 to -50
Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder work @ 100% effectiveness
Headfake, Spin, and Juke work at 50% effectiveness.
VA: Brusier (same as today)

Slider: -49 to 49
Power Thru, Lower the Shoulder, Headfake, Juke work @ 100% effectiveness
Stiff Arm and Spin work @ 125% effectiveness
VA: Thunder and Lightning, with each point in it give a 1% boost to faking and a 2% boost to Stiff Arm and Spin

Slider 50 to 100
Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder work @ 50% effectiveness.
Spin, Headfake, and Juke work @ 100% effectiveness.
VA: Slippery: (keep same as before)

Keep Quick Feet the same, not tied to Slider.




Maybe this isn't quite right, but I feel its closer to where you should be heading.

As usual I agree with PP... And I'm glad I don't have to go through pages of writing when I can just say what he said.

Originally posted by Bukowski
Originally posted by TehKyou

Spins already seem rediculous. Unless there is some form of tackling slider to counter this I'm against it.


[dissappears for 3 months again]

Adjust your builds.


I already tried moving equipment around and giving my SS close to 80 tackling and 75 Strength. Spins were still the majority of his missed tackles. Problem with that was it was detrimental to his build because I took away from his speed and missed the exact same type of tackles. Yay double edge sword of futility.
Edit: suprisingly I actually like Hulks idea. Your not buffing the skills, but making them more realistic depending on the style of running.

First - I always assumed it was like the way its being discussed. Only recently dawned on me it probably wasn't and was just begining to make changes to exploit it.

Secondly - Yes, this is good. Do it. Make effectiveness a sliding scale from -100 to 100, .5% per point of the slider. So if at 100 evasive Evasive SAs work 100% as often as they do now, 99.5% as well at 99, 50% as well at 0, 25% at -50, and do not work at all at -100 setting. Other way round for power SAs (ie they do not work at 100, half as well at 0 etc).

Thirdly - you are going to have to give some sort of SA reset to people if you do this. Its just fair and will head off a storm of protests.

Fourthly - I do not see how Spin is anything other than an Evasive move. Rule of thumb should be, if you are lowering into a bull rush, can you still do it?

Fifthly - Stiff Arm is actually the one that is more of a middling style. You can stiff arm while trying to get around some one, or you can try to level them in a fist to face head on charge. I would mostly say its a Agilty Evasive tactic though. Maybe come up with another name for the same thing that is more of a Power Thing (Throw Elbow or Push Aside etc).

Originally posted by HULK
I've been building a dot since season 7 to specifically be a Spin back. If this is changed, I've effectively wasted 1 year of my time on him. Would suck imo.



I think the problem isn't with Spin. Its fine that there are a couple of different directions to build an elusive dot (faker, spinner, pass catcher, some each, etc). Lets not mandate cookie cutters. Choices are what make the game imo.

The problems, from my perspective, are as follows:
-fakes are not powerful enough when compare to breaking tackles (dots recover WAY faster, still make tackle anyways)
-you can break a tackle without an SA, but you cannot fake without an SA

This is what sets up your inequity between power and elusive backs, more than anything else. If you want elusive backs to be legitimate contenders at top levels, work backwards from these two facts to find the solution.

What are you smoking? Spin is waay overpowered right now. I don't have a problem with backs with good builds and a high level (8+) spin breaking a few tackles, but a lot builds that shouldn't be able to spin well (< 75 agility,<68 carrying <5 Spin) are breaking tackles multiple times per play with it.

The problem.... how is it fair that Elusive backs get so many bonuses to their SA's firing and Power backs get none? 2x fake chance AEQs, and 30% from SAs? That is pretty imbalanced imo. get rid or give power backs the same. Then balance the SAs.

I really don't want to go back to S8, but right now the running game is terrible in the opposite direction. A good elusive back gets 10 YPC, and an average one 6YPC. A good power back gets 5-6 YPC, and an average one 2 YPC. They should balance the running game at no more than 7 YPC with an elite back and a great line. The strength of (a good) running game is why we see so many blowouts - if the YPC were reduced to realistic levels we'd see less blowouts. Outside pursuit is also slightly to blame, but not entirely.


I'm with you on the bar effect though there should be a boost one side and a penalty the other - it should be smaller effect than most people are talking about, otherwise backs will get forced to the extremes too much and will all either be really elusive or really powerful with no middle ground.

Originally posted by HULK
This is what sets up your inequity between power and elusive backs, more than anything else. If you want elusive backs to be legitimate contenders at top levels, work backwards from these two facts to find the solution.

Ever watched a real football game. Unless you've got a really special guy in there he won't be making a lot of people miss, whereas a lot of decent running backs will break a tackle where the tackler has a poor angle.

Broken tackles should happen more often than fakes. The advantage that an elusive back is that if he makes one guy miss, he can take it to the house with his speed. A big back will have to break more tackles than the elusive back has to fake in order to perform equally. Right now Elusive backs break waay too many tackles