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Forum > Test Server Discussion > Test Server Discussions > Rushing- Discussion about tying Rush SA's, Fakes, and BrkTackle Rolls to the Slider
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Bukowski
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You can't just change stuff around like that.

People have been building towards certain attributes affecting Spin for a long time now. Changing the required attributes would just piss off an entire new base of people, which would be terrible.

These builds cost money. You can't just decide in Season 15, that a certain SA works off of different attributes, than what it has been working on for the past 14 seasons.

It is just that simple.

The fact is hardly anyone around GLB wants Elusive Backs to be able to do anything. Every single time they have a little bit of success, they end up worse than they were before, which is why fakes are so terrible right now. People cannot stand to see their defender faked or spun on, especially by elusive backs. So now, here in Season 15, hardly anyone owns elusive backs, they're all Combo or Power - which is why everyone just runs to the forums to bitch about them, they're the serious minority around here.

PP knows exactly what he's talking about, he seems to be one of the few that has a grip on what the real situation is.
 
Enkidu98
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You can't keep saying you can't just change stuff around like that.

People have been building towards exploiting a mechanic that creates an unfair imbalance where a power back gets more benefit from an elusive move than an elusive back, AND its cheaper for them.

Its just that simple.
 
taurran
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Here's what I think would make the most sense for fixing spin:

- Remove bonus based on running slider.
- Add a [reduced] bonus to Spin for elusive archetypes.

This ensures that combo HBs wont be abusing spin bonuses and also utilizing power SAs. This means that only elusive HBs (the ones who really need it) will get the added bonus.


Thanks to the awesome mods of this board for locking my other thread.
 
taurran
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
You can't keep saying you can't just change stuff around like that.

People have been building towards exploiting a mechanic that creates an unfair imbalance where a power back gets more benefit from an elusive move than an elusive back, AND its cheaper for them.

Its just that simple.


Wrong.

You're totally dismissing the idea of a Combo HB, which conveniently allows you to dismiss them and screw over that type of player build. Typical lack of insight for someone that somehow has been given the title of "Tester".

I swear testers are the most illogical group of agents in this game...
Edited by taurran on May 4, 2010 08:38:49
 
taurran
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Originally posted by taurran
Here's what I think would make the most sense for fixing spin:

- Remove bonus based on running slider.
- Add a [reduced] bonus to Spin for elusive archetypes.

This ensures that combo HBs wont be abusing spin bonuses and also utilizing power SAs. This means that only elusive HBs (the ones who really need it) will get the added bonus.


Thanks to the awesome mods of this board for locking my other thread.


Read this. This is the BEST way to change Spin without screwing over all the Combo HBs that have built to utilize it.
 
RMiller517
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Originally posted by Bukowski
The fact is hardly anyone around GLB wants Elusive Backs to be able to do anything. Every single time they have a little bit of success, they end up worse than they were before, which is why fakes are so terrible right now. People cannot stand to see their defender faked or spun on, especially by elusive backs.


People expect their defensive dots to make all the tackles all the time, and if they miss too many, then something is broken. The fact is that elusives should fake people and powerbacks should run through people... just the same as all running backs fumble and all qbs throw interceptions. The frequency of each is what is the topic here... a balance needs to be achieved.
 
Enkidu98
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Originally posted by taurran
Wrong.

You're totally dismissing the idea of a Combo HB, which conveniently allows you to dismiss them and screw over that type of player build. Typical lack of insight for someone that somehow has been given the title of "Tester".

I swear testers are the most illogical group of agents in this game...


No, I didn't dismiss the Combo back. But you can name call etc all you want. Via my own suggested repair, fixing the attributes used to determine the success of the spin to include more Agility doesn't kill any combo back.

Again, they'll still have 3.5 methods to break a tackle. And the .5 is actually a full 1, as they'll have 4 possible methods, just one will have been reduced slightly)

Combo backs aren't getting screwed.

 
HULK
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
You can't keep saying you can't just change stuff around like that.

People have been building towards exploiting a mechanic that creates an unfair imbalance where a power back gets more benefit from an elusive move than an elusive back, AND its cheaper for them.

Its just that simple.


What?

I have a spin back and I've been building him to be elusive, fast, and a strength based spinner since season 7. Just because the powers that be buffed the slider for Spin, now I'm building towards an exploit and screw my dot?

You can't the change attriubutes that contribute to spin without pissing a lot of people off. And those people are not "exploiters".
 
PP
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Originally posted by HULK
What?
And those people are not "exploiters".


For what it's worth, I agree with that. I've never got the whole, "if you build towards the most effective route you are an exploiter and shouldn't complain when it gets nerfed" argument. The hole point of dot building is to build to what works. After Bort suggested the Slider and I got into the testing process on this, I suggested numerous times that we either need to tie all the run SAs to the slider or none. I actually think Bort's slider idea has some merits. After all, your running style does to a great extent dictate what type of "moves" you rely on in FB. So, it does fit and adds some functionality to the slider.

That said, I really think it flat out has to be all of them or nothing. The bonus needs to be turned down to a more reasonable lvl, but, if one is going to use the slider for anything, it has to apply to all of them and it has to make you give up something to get something. Currently, you give up nothing to max Spin. If given the choice, I'd go for tying all the run SAs to the slider. However, if that doesn't happen, Spin needs to be removed.
 
Enkidu98
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Originally posted by HULK
What?

I have a spin back and I've been building him to be elusive, fast, and a strength based spinner since season 7. Just because the powers that be buffed the slider for Spin, now I'm building towards an exploit and screw my dot?

You can't the change attriubutes that contribute to spin without pissing a lot of people off. And those people are not "exploiters".


No, but you were building him to take advantage of Spin being a break tackle roll which relies on strength for most frequent success but sits in an elusive tree. You knew it was a break tackle, and you knew it was easy to obtain with AEQ to minimise the investment in an SA tree to achieve it.

So you were knowingly building towards a build that would be unbalanced because of a mechanical flaw in the sim which creates 4 break tackle rolls.

So its not just the slider, without the slider power folks and combo folks etc were going for spin. The slider just made it worse.

Which is why I've suggested that the Spin results roll not use Strength but instead Agility, so that there weren't 4 break tackle rolls using strength in a major way.
 
HULK
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Originally posted by PP
For what it's worth, I agree with that. I've never got the whole, "if you build towards the most effective route you are an exploiter and shouldn't complain when it gets nerfed" argument. The hole point of dot building is to build to what works. After Bort suggested the Slider and I got into the testing process on this, I suggested numerous times that we either need to tie all the run SAs to the slider or none. I actually think Bort's slider idea has some merits. After all, your running style does to a great extent dictate what type of "moves" you rely on in FB. So, it does fit and adds some functionality to the slider.

That said, I really think it flat out has to be all of them or nothing. The bonus needs to be turned down to a more reasonable lvl, but, if one is going to use the slider for anything, it has to apply to all of them and it has to make you give up something to get something. Currently, you give up nothing to max Spin. If given the choice, I'd go for tying all the run SAs to the slider. However, if that doesn't happen, Spin needs to be removed.


I bolded what I agree is the issue. Although you give you some brk tk % switching from Bruiser to Slippery. But its not enough to offset the boost to Spin.

Like I said about a week ago, I get scared at the thought of boosting Power Thru with the slider. Thats already a damn powerful SA.

I'm not sure I have a solution that works for this. Maybe just an overall boost to Spin, paired with LTS and Power Thru no longer working on any elusive setting, and Spin and Juke no longer working on any power setting? Then that screws the combo backs though.
 
HULK
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
No, but you were building him to take advantage of Spin being a break tackle roll which relies on strength for most frequent success but sits in an elusive tree. You knew it was a break tackle, and you knew it was easy to obtain with AEQ to minimise the investment in an SA tree to achieve it.

So you were knowingly building towards a build that would be unbalanced because of a mechanical flaw in the sim which creates 4 break tackle rolls.

So its not just the slider, without the slider power folks and combo folks etc were going for spin. The slider just made it worse.

Which is why I've suggested that the Spin results roll not use Strength but instead Agility, so that there weren't 4 break tackle rolls using strength in a major way.


My dot actually has 0 in power thru and lts and stiff arm. Its just Spin for him. He's elusive. But built to spin. If strength becomes a non-factor, my year of building this dot was wasted.
 
HULK
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Brainstorm:

Power Thru: Only works if running 25 power or higher
Lower The Shoulder: Only works if running 25 power or higher
Stiff Arm: Works 100 power to 49 elusive
Headfake: Works from 49 power to 100 elusive
Juke: Only works if running 50 elusive or higher
Spin: Works from 24 power to 100 elusive (baseline Spin gets a buff up, but not as high up as 100 elusive is getting at this moment)

Bruiser: +3% brktckl if 50 power or higher
Slippery: +2% brktckl if 25 elusive to 100 elusive
Comboback VA: +1% brktckl, +1% fake, only works -49 to 49 on the slider
SYM: As is
Quick Feet: As is, only works on 25 - 100 elusive
Clever Instinct: As is
Edited by HULK on May 5, 2010 20:29:37
Edited by HULK on May 5, 2010 20:27:56
 
Enkidu98
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Originally posted by HULK
Brainstorm:

Power Thru: Only works if running 25 power or higher
Lower The Shoulder: Only works if running 25 power or higher
Stiff Arm: Works 100 power to 49 elusive
Headfake: Works from 49 power to 100 elusive
Juke: Only works if running 50 elusive or higher
Spin: Works from 24 power to 100 elusive (baseline Spin gets a buff up, but not as high up as 100 elusive is getting at this moment)

Bruiser: +3% brktckl if 50 power or higher
Slippery: +2% brktckl if 25 elusive to 100 elusive
Comboback VA: +1% brktckl, +1% fake, only works -49 to 49 on the slider
SYM: As is
Quick Feet: As is, only works on 25 - 100 elusive
Clever Instinct: As is


Not bad, but I might change it some.

Slippery should be +3% Spin break Tackle, eg it only applies to spin and a Bonus to fake% as well like +1% (Since Fakes don't seem to trigger as often as they should). This way its not a blanked break tackle bonus and couldn't really stack with Bruiser with Bruiser being modified to only apply to break tackles from the powerback tree.
Comboback VA shouldn't stack with either Bruiser or Slippery. And I might consider giving it a little more punch, Like +2% instead of +1 %.

That way, Elusive backs get a +3% for specialising, Powerbacks get +3% for specialising, Combobacks get only +2%/+2% BUT they have a lot more in their arsenal that may work.
 
Bukowski
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
Originally posted by HULK

What?

I have a spin back and I've been building him to be elusive, fast, and a strength based spinner since season 7. Just because the powers that be buffed the slider for Spin, now I'm building towards an exploit and screw my dot?

You can't the change attriubutes that contribute to spin without pissing a lot of people off. And those people are not "exploiters".


No, but you were building him to take advantage of Spin being a break tackle roll which relies on strength for most frequent success but sits in an elusive tree. You knew it was a break tackle, and you knew it was easy to obtain with AEQ to minimise the investment in an SA tree to achieve it.

So you were knowingly building towards a build that would be unbalanced because of a mechanical flaw in the sim which creates 4 break tackle rolls.

So its not just the slider, without the slider power folks and combo folks etc were going for spin. The slider just made it worse.

Which is why I've suggested that the Spin results roll not use Strength but instead Agility, so that there weren't 4 break tackle rolls using strength in a major way.


YOU DONT GET IT
 
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