Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Worker 3
agreed... i was liking what catch was doing, but this kind of ruined all cred he has with me now. doesnt make sense to say its all set in stone and then change it all of a sudden. if things were as well thought out as he made them sound, a change wouldnt have been needed. if he is going to change them like that, he may as well take suggestions... or better yet. have taken suggestions before "setting everything in stone."

Holy shit. This is just a dumb argument. Sorry. I was going to stay out of it but come one.

Anyone that has been involved in a software project or a marketing project know what you said is just BS. All the time people in software say set in stone BUT something is seen that will cause problems.

So maybe, just maybe, some at GLB stood up and said "Hmmm....we should look at these combo players again. They look a little over-powered". The OP argument was it was the best......and guess what...it probably was and probably overpowered. And to say he should have taken suggestions before changing? Holy crap man....how many threads have gone around about this stuff and what should and shouldn't change?

Was it dumb for Catch to say no change...yes. But dumb for anyone to also believe it. It is a game....things will constantly change before it is released (and change after released). The shit hasn't even been released to us and everyone is crying.

Oops

Originally posted by joemalaka
Holy shit. This is just a dumb argument. Sorry. I was going to stay out of it but come one.

Anyone that has been involved in a software project or a marketing project know what you said is just BS. All the time people in software say set in stone BUT something is seen that will cause problems.

So maybe, just maybe, some at GLB stood up and said "Hmmm....we should look at these combo players again. They look a little over-powered". The OP argument was it was the best......and guess what...it probably was and probably overpowered. And to say he should have taken suggestions before changing? Holy crap man....how many threads have gone around about this stuff and what should and shouldn't change?

Was it dumb for Catch to say no change...yes. But dumb for anyone to also believe it. It is a game....things will constantly change before it is released (and change after released). The shit hasn't even been released to us and everyone is crying.

my main thing isnt that he changed his mind, but that he is so against taking suggestions when his proposed arch types and ALGs are so out of whack that they were changed within 48 hours of him releasing them. if he doesnt want suggestions, he should spend more time making sure that what he puts out is legit. time that should have been spent before releasing just about every detail about it.

if he were open to suggestions, then i would be okay with the changes. but the fact that they need changes and he doesnt want suggestions seems a bit arrogant to me.

he either should have:

A.) spent more time checking his numbers and making sure the ALGs and such are to where they are going to be at (for at least a season) before releasing them.

B.) threw out that GLB will be going to an arch-type system, and let users discuss, argue, and figure out what most of the arch types should be (ridiculous ones like rushing QB would of course be thrown out), then take it to the mod forum or whatever and let them maybe fine tune and perfect it a little bit.

to just throw out a revolutionary idea and implement it without ideas from the user base is ridiculous, imo. i like what catch has done with the Q&A, but this was a dumb move that probably would have been better received if more thought had been put into it.

Joe, was combo the best choice before? Yes, but now it is the worse choice. I would think the combo choice would be better if they could find a happy medium or remove it if not.

No matter how they set it up there is gonna be a best choice for most positions. That should be pretty obvious.

^ won't matter if one position-specific archetype is better than the others...if that turns out to be the case, Bort will somehow nerf it to an equal level and we'll be right back at square 1

Pretty sure this was in the OP as well:

If you see an unbalanced archetype, by all means bring it up and we'll look at it.

That's what we did with HB Combo.

More will likely be changed as well while we do balance testing on the test server - that list is not final, it is the preliminary list. We're not taking user suggestions for changes though and that much I meant.

Originally posted by Catch22
If you see an unbalanced archetype, by all means bring it up and we'll look at it.
Originally posted by Catch22
We're not taking user suggestions for changes though and that much I meant.



Seriously, please think about what kind of message it sends to say "We're fundamentally changing the way players develop in this game, but don't even bother telling us how you think they should be because we don't care what you think." Believe me, I get the desire to avoid a deluge of user suggestions, but this is so damned important to the future of the game and whether or not current customers continue to play it that you absolutely owe it to us to listen to any suggestions we might have. Feel free to reject them all if you don't find them compelling, but it's way out of line to say that you don't even want to hear them.

Originally posted by wombat killer
Catch stated they were set is stone and people would get forum banned for making change suggestions and then ONE page later threw out that he was thinking of getting rid of the combo back.

He didn't want suggestions on how to make archetypes "better" or on "new" archetypes that weren't listed. That was what he meant when he said things were set in stone. He specifically asked people to point out any archetypes that appeared overpowered so they could be looked at and tested before this ever goes live. I don't see the issue here.

The thread The Somewhat Official Archetypes Thread has been merged into this thread

For more info check out the threads containing discussion and summary of discussion in the Q & A archives forum: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread_list.pl?forum_id=7753


We've spent significant time looking at and figuring out a way to improve the way that players are developed and have come up with a player archetype system that will do just this. This is going to be a long post so I am going to stick around and answer questions for the next couple of hours. Don't turn it into a whine session - if you have a legitimate concern, voice it in a constructive manner and we'll discuss it. This is a huge game changing system and while we've tried to address everything, it is possible we missed something - this is why we're opening it up for discussion now rather than just introducing the improvement. However, we are not taking suggestions to changing archetypes or adding new ones. If you see an unbalanced archetype, by all means bring it up and we'll look at it.

For every position there are several archetypes that a player will be able to choose from when creating a player. Depending on the archetype there will be different Automatic Level Gains (ALG's) and Special Abilities (SA's) that receive a bonus or penalty. In addition, there are height/weight ranges depending on archetype that we've tried to line up with realistic values.

An agent can add one bonus SA to each player. This SA cannot already be in the player's normal SA Tree. The bonus SA is in a tree by itself and has the 1-2-3-4-5 skill point cost progression. This must be selected at player creation.

We're also going to be working on a special SA for each archetype - will add more info on these later (we're going to create a Suggestions thread for these and figure out which ones will work best). This will be in addition to the bonus SA. This idea is not guaranteed to happen but if we can come up with SA's that make sense and are balanced, we'll attempt to add this.

These archetypes and their associated ALG's and SA's are as follows:

Player Archetypes

Level 1-21 3 points total
Level 22-29 2.25 points total (25% reduction from Level 1-21 total)
Level 30-37 1.6875 points total (25% reduction from Level 22-29 total)
Level 38+ 1.265625 points total (25% reduction from Level 30-37 total)

Base Levels
Majors +.5 (if 4), +.67 (if 3)
Minor +.25 (if 4), +.33 (if 3)

Quarterbacks

QB Pocket Passer
6'0" - 6'6", 200-260 Lbs
Major Confidence Throwing Vision (+.67)
Minor Agility Stamina Strength (+.33)
Bonus SA's - Pump Fake, Tight Spiral
Penalty SA's - Dump Pass, On The Run

QB Deep Passer
6'0" - 6'6", 200-260 Lbs
Major Strength Throwing Vision (+.67)
Minor Agility Confidence Stamina (+.33)
Bonus SA's - Tight Spiral, Turn The Shoulder
Penalty SA's - Dump Pass, On The Run

QB Scrambler
5'11" - 6'3", 190-230 Lbs
Major Agility Throwing Vision (+.67)
Minor Confidence Speed Strength (+.33)
Bonus SA's - On The Run, Dump Pass
Penalty SA's - Pump Fake, Tight Spiral

Halfbacks

HB Power
5'11" - 6'4", 210-260 Lbs
Major Agility Carrying Confidence Strength (+.5)
Minor Catching Speed Stamina Vision (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Lower Shoulder, Power Thru
Penalty SA's - First Step, Spin

HB Elusive
5'6" - 6'2", 180-220 Lbs
Major Agility Carrying Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor Catching Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Head Fake, Juke
Penalty SA's - Lower Shoulder, Power Thru

HB Scat Back
5'6" - 6'2", 180-220 Lbs
Major Agility Catching Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor Carrying Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Quick Cut, First Step
Penalty SA's - Lower Shoulder, Power Thru

HB Combo
5'9" - 6'2", 200-230 Lbs
Major Carrying Confidence Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor Agility Catching Stamina Strength (+.25)
Bonus SA's - None
Penalty SA's - None

Fullbacks

FB Running
5'10" - 6'3", 230-250 Lbs
Major Agility Carrying Confidence Strength (+.5)
Minor Catching Speed Stamina Vision (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Power Thru, Quick Cut
Penalty SA's - Lead Block, Pancake

FB Blocking
5'10" - 6'3", 230-270 Lbs
Major Agility Blocking Strength Vision (+.5)
Minor Carrying Confidence Speed Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Lead Block, Pancake
Penalty SA's - Power Thru, Quick Cut

FB Combo
5'10" - 6'3", 230-260 Lbs
Major Agility Blocking Carrying Strength
Minor Catching Confidence Speed Vision
Bonus SA's - None
Penalty SA's - None

FB Scat Back
5'10" - 6'3", 230-250 Lbs
Major Agility Catching Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor Carrying Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Sticky Hands, Quick Cut
Penalty SA's - Lead Block, Pancake

Wide Receivers

WR Speedster
5'8" - 6'2", 175-215 Lbs
Major Agility Catching Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor Carrying Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - First Step, Quick Cut
Penalty SA's - Route Run, Sticky Hands

WR Possession
6'0" - 6'6", 195-235 Lbs
Major Agility Catching Jumping Vision (+.5)
Minor Carrying Confidence Speed Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Route Run, Sticky Hands
Penalty SA's - First Step, Quick Cut

WR Power
6'0" - 6'6", 205-235 Lbs
Major Agility Carrying Catching Strength (+.5)
Minor Confidence Speed Stamina Vision (+.25)
Bonus SA's - None
Penalty SA's - None

Tight Ends

TE Blocker
6'2" - 6'8", 250-280 Lbs
Major Agility Blocking Strength Vision (+.5)
Minor Catching Confidence Speed Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Get Low, Pancake
Penalty SA's - Route Run, Quick Cut

TE Power
6'2" - 6'8", 250-280 Lbs
Major Agility Carrying Catching Strength (+.5)
Minor Confidence Speed Stamina Vision (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Cover Up, Lower Shoulder
Penalty SA's - Get Low, Pancake

TE Receiver
6'0" - 6'6", 230-260 Lbs
Major Agility Catching Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor Carrying Jumping Stamina Strength (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Route Run, Quick Cut
Penalty SA's - Get Low, Pancake

TE Combo
6'2" - 6'8", 250-280 Lbs
Major Agility Blocking Catching Strength
Minor Confidence Jumping Speed Vision
Bonus SA's - None
Penalty SA's - None

Offensive Line

Pass Blocking
(C) 6'0" - 6'4", 230-300 Lbs
(G) 6'2" - 6'5", 290-325 Lbs
(T) 6'2" - 6'6", 280-320 Lbs
Major Agility Blocking Confidence (+.67)
Minor Vision Speed Strength (+.33)
Bonus SA's (C/G) - Pass Block, Foundation
Bonus SA's (T) - Pass Block, Protector
Penalty SA's - Get Low, Pancake

Run Blocking
(C) 6'2" - 6'6", 280-330 Lbs
(G) 6'2" - 6'7", 310-360 Lbs
(T) 6'4" - 6'9", 300-350 Lbs
Major Blocking Confidence Strength (+.67)
Minor Agility Stamina Vision (+.33)
Bonus SA's - Get Low, Pancake
Penalty SA's (C/G) - Pass Block, Foundation
Penalty SA's (T) - Pass Block, Protector

Defensive Line

Strength DL
(DE) 6'2" - 6'8", 275-330 Lbs
(DT) 6'0" - 6'8", 300-360 Lbs
Major Agility Strength Tackling (+.67)
Minor Vision Speed Stamina (+.33)
Bonus SA's (DE) - Wall, Strong Base
Bonus SA's (DT) - Wall, Break Thru
Penalty SA's (DE) - First Step, Tunnel Vision
Penalty SA's (DT) - Shed Block, Swat Ball

Speed DL
(DE) 5'11" - 6'4", 240-280 Lbs
(DT) 6'0" - 6'5", 250-300 Lbs
Major Agility Speed Vision (+.67)
Minor Stamina Strength Tackling (+.33)
Bonus SA's (DE) - First Step, Tunnel Vision
Bonus SA's (DT) - Shed Block, Swat Ball
Penalty SA's (DE) - Wall, Strong Base
Penalty SA's (DT) - Wall, Break Thru

Combo DL
(DE) 6'2" - 6'6", 260-300 Lbs
(DT) 6'0" - 6'8", 280-330 Lbs
Major Speed Strength Vision (+.67)
Minor Agility Stamina Tackling (+.33)
Bonus SA's - None
Penalty SA's - None

Linebackers

Coverage LB
5'10" - 6'3", 220-250 Lbs
Major Agility Jumping Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor Confidence Stamina Strength Tackling (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Diving Tackle, Swat Ball
Penalty SA's - Monster Hit, Shed Block

Blitzing LB
5'10" - 6'6", 240-270 Lbs
Major Agility Jumping Speed Tackling (+.5)
Minor Confidence Stamina Strength Vision (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Shed Block, Big Sack
Penalty SA's - Aura of Int, Monster Hit

Hard Hitting LB
5'10" - 6'6", 240-270 Lbs
Major Agility Strength Tackling Vision (+.5)
Minor Confidence Jumping Speed Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Snarl, Monster Hit
Penalty SA's - Swat Ball, Big Sack

Combo LB
5'10" - 6'6", 230-260 Lbs
Major Agility Speed Tackling Vision (+.5)
Minor Confidence Jumping Stamina Strength (+.25)
Bonus SA's - None
Penalty SA's - None

Secondary

Man Specialist
(CB) 5'8" - 6'3", 170-210 Lbs
(SS) 5'9" - 6'5", 195-230 Lbs
(FS) 5'8" - 6'4", 185-220 Lbs
Major Agility Jumping Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor Catching Confidence Stamina Tackling (+.25)
Bonus SA's (CB) - Shutdown Coverage
Bonus SA's (SS) - Change Direction
Bonus SA's (FS) - Shutdown Coverage
Penalty SA's (CB) - Closing Speed
Penalty SA's (SS) - Big Hit
Penalty SA's (FS) - Big Hit

Zone Specialist
(CB) 5'8" - 6'3", 170-210 Lbs
(SS) 5'9" - 6'5", 195-230 Lbs
(FS) 5'8" - 6'4", 185-220 Lbs
Major Agility Speed Tackling Vision (+.5)
Minor Catching Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's - Super Vision
Penalty SA's (CB) - Shutdown Coverage
Penalty SA's (SS) - Change Direction
Penalty SA's (FS) - Shutdown Coverage

Hard Hitter
(CB) 5'10" - 6'3", 190-210 Lbs
(SS) 5'11" - 6'5", 205-230 Lbs
(FS) 5'10" - 6'4", 195-220 Lbs
Major Agility Strength Tackling Vision (+.5)
Minor Confidence Jumping Speed Stamina (+.25)
Bonus SA's (CB) - Closing Speed
Bonus SA's (SS) - Big Hit
Bonus SA's (FS) - Big Hit
Penalty SA's - Change Direction

Combo Secondary
(CB) 5'8" - 6'3", 170-210 Lbs
(SS) 5'9" - 6'5", 195-230 Lbs
(FS) 5'8" - 6'4", 185-220 Lbs
Major Agility Speed Strength Tackling (+.5)
Minor Confidence Jumping Stamina Vision (+.25)
Bonus SA's - None
Penalty SA's - None

Kickers

Boomer
5'8" - 6'5", 180-230 Lbs
Major Confidence Kicking Strength (+.67)
Minor Agility Jumping Vision (+.33)

Finesse
5'8" - 6'5", 180-230 Lbs
Major Confidence Kicking Vision (+.67)
Minor Agility Jumping Strength (+.33)

Punter

Boomer
5'11" - 6'5", 180-250 Lbs
Major Confidence Punting Strength (+.67)
Minor Agility Jumping Vision (+.33)

Finesse
5'11" - 6'5", 180-250 Lbs
Major Confidence Punting Vision (+.67)
Minor Agility Jumping Strength (+.33)

Special Teams Only Player
Major: Agility Blocking Speed Tackling (+.5)
Minor: Confidence Stamina Strength Vision (+.25)
Bonus SA's - None
Penalty SA's - None

Returner (only HB/WR/CB eligible)
(HB) 5'6" - 6'0", 180-220 Lbs
(WR) 5'8" - 6'2", 175-215 Lbs
(CB) 5'8" - 6'2", 170-210 Lbs
Major: Agility Carrying Speed Vision (+.5)
Minor: Confidence Jumping Stamina Strength (+.25)
Bonus SA's (HB/WR) - First Step, Quick Cut
Bonus SA's (CB) - Change Direction, Return Spec.
Penalty SA's (HB) - Stiff Arm, Power Thru
Penalty SA's (WR) - Route Run, Sticky Hands
Penalty SA's (CB) - Super Vision, Shutdown Coverage

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We realize that this will change many things and players will have many concerns. Here is what we are doing to help alleviate those concerns. All mentions of pre-season and season are in reference to season 15 (next season), not this season (season 14).

1) Players created before the archetypes were implemented will be allowed a one time archetype selection. This is optional and you will only have until the end of the pre-season to do so. When you select the archetype, you will start getting the ALG's and SA bonuses/penalties and will be allowed to select the bonus SA. The height/weight restrictions are only for newly created players so you do not need to worry about those when choosing your archetype (if you are not a newly created player).

2) If your player is <120 days old as of the first day after rollover to the new season, you will be able to retire your player for a higher return than the normal 70%. These rates are as follows:
1-40 days old 90% return of CE/boost FP investment. For example, you created a WR (300 FP), equipped them with complete CE (900 FP), and boosted them 3 times (900 FP), you would receive 1,920 flex in return instead of 1,560.
41-80 days old 85% return of CE/boost FP investment. For example, you created a WR (300 FP), equipped them with complete CE (900 FP), and boosted them 3 times (900 FP), you would receive 1,830 flex in return instead of 1,560.
81-120 days old 80% return of CE/boost FP investment. For example, you created a WR (300 FP), equipped them with complete CE (900 FP), and boosted them 3 times (900 FP), you would receive 1,740 flex in return instead of 1,560.

3) To celebrate the rollout of this change, we are going to be awarding every user on GLB the equivalent of 300 flex for new player creation. This must be used before the end of the pre-season or it is lost forever. You can create (3) 100 flex players, (1) 100 flex and (1) 200 flex player, or (1) 300 flex player. This will be non-refundable flex, meaning when you retire this player it will not be returned to you.

4) One of the purposes of the archetypes in addition to giving more options for you to build a player is to simplify game planning. DC's will now be able to tag an offensive player by archetype. This will allow DC's to set up AI's ahead of time without a constant need for changing due to different tagging requirements.

Why are we doing this? Because it'll allow for more diverse/unique builds which will make a more fun experience for everyone. It'll also simplify many other areas of GLB including coordinating and recruiting.

5) The bonus and penalties to SA's are applied as a flat percentage increase to the SA. That percentage will not be revealed but it will be large enough to have a significant impact for that archetype. Just as an example, let's say the percentage is 20% and you are an Elusive Back who gets a bonus to Head Fake/Juke and a penalty to Lower Shoulder/Power Thru. If you have 10 in Head Fake, the bonus will make it in essence a 12 in Head Fake. If you have 10 in Power Through, the penalty will make it in essence a 8 in Power Through. Understand that the bonuses/penalties could vary in their percentage depending upon the archetype.

6) Understand that some of the majors/minors might not be the "perfect" build. We intentionally did this for game and build balance and to force strategic decisions. If certain attributes were majors for a archetype that could lead to that archetype being the only one selected for that position so we adjusted the archetypes accordingly to make the choices ones that required thought rather than it being an automatic one.

OK, that's it - I'm sure you all have questions, so let's have them!


An excellent quote from Daudy explaining how this system is MORE flexible than the current player building system and gives players many more choices:

Originally posted by Daudy
It gives us more diversity than the current system because we're able to modify how each position now levels up naturally. So, instead of ALL HBs majoring in a certain skill (say speed), you now have the option to choose something else - as long as it fits within one of the Archetypes available.

For example, if I build a HB now, each level up between level 1-21 would give me 0.33 each in Agility, Speed, Strength, vision, confidence and carrying and also 0.20 in blocking, catching, jumping, stamina and THROWING.

So in essence, EVERYBODY who builds a HB would level up the same at the moment.

With this new system, you get the choice between Agility Carrying Confidence Strength (+.5) and Catching Speed Stamina Vision (+.25) or Agility Carrying Speed Vision (+.5) and Catching Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25) or Agility Catching Speed Vision (+.5) and Carrying Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25) or Carrying Speed Strength Vision (+.5) and Agility Catching Confidence Stamina (+.25)

Thus, with this new system, you should theoretically be able to build players more specifically tailored towards your intended role for them. AND, you no longer have the same level gains as EVERYBODY ELSE IN THAT ENTIRE POSITION.

See where it's a bit more flexible now?

They probably won't wake up for another 5 hours

lolkai

The last comment was more about the Flash replays. I think Catach22 said something about posting something about the archetypes in a week or so.

jung was a tosser and his theories were semi-intellectual tripe

Originally posted by TehKyou
They probably won't wake up for another 5 hours

If you build it....they will come.