Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Forum > Test Server Discussion > Test Server: Testing Pass Rush Effectiveness
rockitsauce
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Originally posted by wessimo
There is something else going on here... any ideas what is causing this?
There is something else going on here... any ideas what is causing this?
Last edited Apr 19, 2009 11:08:33
wessimo
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Originally posted by thehazyone
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Yep, these are from yesterday. Hopefully will see improvements in tomorrow's sim.
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Yep, these are from yesterday. Hopefully will see improvements in tomorrow's sim.
britdevine316
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Originally posted by wessimo
Originally posted by thehazyone
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Yep, these are from yesterday. Hopefully will see improvements in tomorrow's sim.
It'd be active today, find some bull rushes from today
Originally posted by thehazyone
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Yep, these are from yesterday. Hopefully will see improvements in tomorrow's sim.
It'd be active today, find some bull rushes from today
Dpride59
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Originally posted by thehazyone
I increased the speed, agility, and strength another 15 more to 100 each, making them now 30 higher than that of the OT's. Finally, there was adequate pressure in both sacks and hurries. There was a total of 68 sacks and 186 hurries in the 10 games. This pace would lead to a DE getting an average of 14.23 sacks over a 750 play season. Kind of sad, to be honest, that it would take a +30 advantage in speed, agility, and strength to get a DE capable of averaging about one sack a game. That in itself is proof that there is a problem with the way pass rushing and DE vs OT matchups are working.
Nice work. Since borts multi has 26 Left OT's I am sure he wont fix this. All that work for nothing.
I increased the speed, agility, and strength another 15 more to 100 each, making them now 30 higher than that of the OT's. Finally, there was adequate pressure in both sacks and hurries. There was a total of 68 sacks and 186 hurries in the 10 games. This pace would lead to a DE getting an average of 14.23 sacks over a 750 play season. Kind of sad, to be honest, that it would take a +30 advantage in speed, agility, and strength to get a DE capable of averaging about one sack a game. That in itself is proof that there is a problem with the way pass rushing and DE vs OT matchups are working.
Nice work. Since borts multi has 26 Left OT's I am sure he wont fix this. All that work for nothing.
Last edited Apr 19, 2009 11:15:27
wessimo
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Originally posted by thehazyone
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Ok, I guess I'm retarded but I can't find the change log. Can somebody link it for me?
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Ok, I guess I'm retarded but I can't find the change log. Can somebody link it for me?
seanb1979
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Originally posted by wessimo
Originally posted by thehazyone
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Ok, I guess I'm retarded but I can't find the change log. Can somebody link it for me?
next to announcements
http://goallineblitz.com/changelog.html
Originally posted by thehazyone
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Ok, I guess I'm retarded but I can't find the change log. Can somebody link it for me?
next to announcements
http://goallineblitz.com/changelog.html
tautology
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Originally posted by Forbin
This is a job well done.
However, I'd really like to see some more realistic builds go at it. No SA/VA is not realistic.
Try giving the LOT 10 in Protector, give the ROT 8 in First Step (2 AEQ), and give the DEs 10 in TV and 4 in "Blitz".
I am pretty sure that won't tip the scales (As we can see from live games, with the above builds in place..) but the builds tested should be realistic, shouldn't they?
100 / 80 / 70 for DE
90 / 70 / 70 for OT
Agreed 100%, we should absolutely have another run of tests with some builds not built out of raw attributes (I know this is a major pain in the ass
)
Feel free to PM me for some build varieties in the 48 range (though I doubt you need my help
)
This is a job well done.
However, I'd really like to see some more realistic builds go at it. No SA/VA is not realistic.
Try giving the LOT 10 in Protector, give the ROT 8 in First Step (2 AEQ), and give the DEs 10 in TV and 4 in "Blitz".
I am pretty sure that won't tip the scales (As we can see from live games, with the above builds in place..) but the builds tested should be realistic, shouldn't they?
100 / 80 / 70 for DE
90 / 70 / 70 for OT
Agreed 100%, we should absolutely have another run of tests with some builds not built out of raw attributes (I know this is a major pain in the ass
)Feel free to PM me for some build varieties in the 48 range (though I doubt you need my help
)tautology
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Originally posted by PDO
I'll throw out multiple ideas for a fix, since it seems like a (long awaited!) one is finally coming...
#1) Since there is no holding penalty, make it impossible for an OT to engage a DE once he passes a certain angle.
#2) Perhaps change the way blocks are shed. It doesn't make any sense for the DE to go *backwards* when he swims/rips/spins on the OT. Now, obviously the OT is still going to slow down the DE if he successfully performs anything, but is there anyway that these moves could all work as a reverse pancake (if the rolls worked), with the DE going FORWARD but being slowed down dependent on other factors? Ex: If the DE creams the OT on the roll, he's only slowed down by a fraction, but if he barely gets by, the OT still slows him down to 10% speed?
#3) High agility De's should be able to easily outfake low agility OT's, causing the OT to fall... doesn't matter if he fakes in and goes out or fakes out and goes in, but a 100 agility DE should be able to make a 48 agility OT fall at least occasionally.
#4) DE's should absolutely be able to push back an OT with slightly higher strength.
Why?
The DE is going forward and moving faster, while the OT is moving slower and going backwards... that alone should give the DE a slight advantage (and a slight boost to his strength). This will allow for the pocket to be further flushed and perhaps the possibility of the OT being pushed into the QB? Happens often enough in football....
#5) Accept that an average DE against an average OT should get in the area of 16ish sacks a season once you consider how many more plays there are in a GLB season than an NFL season. However, in order to achieve this, this likely means that sack numbers WILL be much higher than 16.
This has NOTHING to do with the OT/DE relationship, it's a great build taking advantage of a poor build, and is a symptom of the parity in the leagues. I don't think my DE should get 10 sacks a game for him to be fun to watch.... but if he's against an OT that is ten levels lower, he absolutely SHOULD dominate, and in order to make sure that DE's can still produce against equal competition it only makes sense that it'll become necessary FOR him to dominate that crappy OT... otherwise it's the only OT he'll ever be able to produce against, and that just doesn't make any sense.
Last of all, go with the backpeddling idea... realistic and logical.
There are some excellent ideas in here.
+1000
I'll throw out multiple ideas for a fix, since it seems like a (long awaited!) one is finally coming...
#1) Since there is no holding penalty, make it impossible for an OT to engage a DE once he passes a certain angle.
#2) Perhaps change the way blocks are shed. It doesn't make any sense for the DE to go *backwards* when he swims/rips/spins on the OT. Now, obviously the OT is still going to slow down the DE if he successfully performs anything, but is there anyway that these moves could all work as a reverse pancake (if the rolls worked), with the DE going FORWARD but being slowed down dependent on other factors? Ex: If the DE creams the OT on the roll, he's only slowed down by a fraction, but if he barely gets by, the OT still slows him down to 10% speed?
#3) High agility De's should be able to easily outfake low agility OT's, causing the OT to fall... doesn't matter if he fakes in and goes out or fakes out and goes in, but a 100 agility DE should be able to make a 48 agility OT fall at least occasionally.
#4) DE's should absolutely be able to push back an OT with slightly higher strength.
Why?
The DE is going forward and moving faster, while the OT is moving slower and going backwards... that alone should give the DE a slight advantage (and a slight boost to his strength). This will allow for the pocket to be further flushed and perhaps the possibility of the OT being pushed into the QB? Happens often enough in football....
#5) Accept that an average DE against an average OT should get in the area of 16ish sacks a season once you consider how many more plays there are in a GLB season than an NFL season. However, in order to achieve this, this likely means that sack numbers WILL be much higher than 16.
This has NOTHING to do with the OT/DE relationship, it's a great build taking advantage of a poor build, and is a symptom of the parity in the leagues. I don't think my DE should get 10 sacks a game for him to be fun to watch.... but if he's against an OT that is ten levels lower, he absolutely SHOULD dominate, and in order to make sure that DE's can still produce against equal competition it only makes sense that it'll become necessary FOR him to dominate that crappy OT... otherwise it's the only OT he'll ever be able to produce against, and that just doesn't make any sense.
Last of all, go with the backpeddling idea... realistic and logical.
There are some excellent ideas in here.
+1000
I just wanted to prove there was a problem - when he makes changes, I'll do more thorough build testing (with typical SA's/VA's on players).
Linker2596
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First hazy finds the rushing problem then the pass rush problem? You are a life saver hazy.
Gyuri1
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thehazyone 4 Bort!
I'm joking, as I think that Bort, generally, does an excellent job given the limitation that he is only 1 person, but I'd hope that Bort sees the positive feedback that has come from this round of testing (and a couple of the other, more transparent tests like Hazy's rushing test) and pushes those working on the test server to do a better job discussing and explaining the whats, whys and hows of there tests. I know it's a lot of (unpaid) work, but I think it's well worth it in that it engenders more trust and confidence in the game from the community.
I'm joking, as I think that Bort, generally, does an excellent job given the limitation that he is only 1 person, but I'd hope that Bort sees the positive feedback that has come from this round of testing (and a couple of the other, more transparent tests like Hazy's rushing test) and pushes those working on the test server to do a better job discussing and explaining the whats, whys and hows of there tests. I know it's a lot of (unpaid) work, but I think it's well worth it in that it engenders more trust and confidence in the game from the community.
23yrwej
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Originally posted by thehazyone
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Sweet. I think my balanced DE will benefit from that.
Bort did an update to Bull Rushing today (it's on the change log) - I assume those are old plays from before that update.
Sweet. I think my balanced DE will benefit from that.
Time Trial
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DEs shouldn't be beating them in one on one coverage very often if they have similar builds. You've got five men on the line and you are rushing four. The DEs are getting boxed out (not beaten or taken down, just given the run around), which should leave a hole for a blitzing back to run through. The defensive player is having to swim against a big man whose job is just to keep you out. A well built tackle should be able to stand up to a well built DE 9 times out of ten in a one on one situation. Try spreading your formation out to stack one side (DE wide left, DT wide left, NT Center, DE Right) and see if the guards and center pick up the force to that side.
I just don't see your point on this one DE owners. Rushing four shouldn't put up the kind of pressure that you think it should.
I just don't see your point on this one DE owners. Rushing four shouldn't put up the kind of pressure that you think it should.
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