Warrior General Games

What about a slide bar for O-Line players in an OT position.

They could tweak their own 'backpedaling' If they backpedal too fast, make them increasingly vulnerable to being bowled over as its harder to remain balanced. This gives them an option to try to stop speedy DE's but it comes at a cost. If they go slower backpedal, they are harder to get around/through BUT a speedy DE can just zip around them.

This cuopled with Borts fixes for Bullrush pathing etc may be just what is needed.

This is a job well done.

However, I'd really like to see some more realistic builds go at it. No SA/VA is not realistic.


Try giving the LOT 10 in Protector, give the ROT 8 in First Step (2 AEQ), and give the DEs 10 in TV and 4 in "Blitz".

I am pretty sure that won't tip the scales (As we can see from live games, with the above builds in place..) but the builds tested should be realistic, shouldn't they?

100 / 80 / 70 for DE
90 / 70 / 70 for OT

I have a question...do OTs and OGs have to complete the same vision check that DEs and DTs have to react to the snap? If not, that would be the first thing I would add. A lot of DL have been adding vision and jump the snap, and it seems like they still can't react faster than the OL.

In real football, one of the most common causes of sacks is an offensive lineman that is slow to react to the snap. Sure, they know the snap count, but it could be a noisy stadium or he might have simply been distracted by that linebacker moving around. Obviously, the C has an instant reaction to the snap since he's the one snapping it, but the guards should react a bit after the C and the OTs should be a bit longer. These vision checks would be easier for OL than for DL to represent the fact that they know the snap count....but a DE with 60 vision should probably react faster than an OT with 30 vision. If they had equal vision, the OT should react faster.

Anyways, just my two cents. And thanks for doing this hazy.

I'll throw out multiple ideas for a fix, since it seems like a (long awaited!) one is finally coming...

#1) Since there is no holding penalty, make it impossible for an OT to engage a DE once he passes a certain angle.

#2) Perhaps change the way blocks are shed. It doesn't make any sense for the DE to go *backwards* when he swims/rips/spins on the OT. Now, obviously the OT is still going to slow down the DE if he successfully performs anything, but is there anyway that these moves could all work as a reverse pancake (if the rolls worked), with the DE going FORWARD but being slowed down dependent on other factors? Ex: If the DE creams the OT on the roll, he's only slowed down by a fraction, but if he barely gets by, the OT still slows him down to 10% speed?

#3) High agility De's should be able to easily outfake low agility OT's, causing the OT to fall... doesn't matter if he fakes in and goes out or fakes out and goes in, but a 100 agility DE should be able to make a 48 agility OT fall at least occasionally.

#4) DE's should absolutely be able to push back an OT with slightly higher strength.

Why?

The DE is going forward and moving faster, while the OT is moving slower and going backwards... that alone should give the DE a slight advantage (and a slight boost to his strength). This will allow for the pocket to be further flushed and perhaps the possibility of the OT being pushed into the QB? Happens often enough in football....


#5) Accept that an average DE against an average OT should get in the area of 16ish sacks a season once you consider how many more plays there are in a GLB season than an NFL season. However, in order to achieve this, this likely means that sack numbers WILL be much higher than 16.

This has NOTHING to do with the OT/DE relationship, it's a great build taking advantage of a poor build, and is a symptom of the parity in the leagues. I don't think my DE should get 10 sacks a game for him to be fun to watch.... but if he's against an OT that is ten levels lower, he absolutely SHOULD dominate, and in order to make sure that DE's can still produce against equal competition it only makes sense that it'll become necessary FOR him to dominate that crappy OT... otherwise it's the only OT he'll ever be able to produce against, and that just doesn't make any sense.

Last of all, go with the backpeddling idea... realistic and logical.

Originally posted by thehazyone
From the test server:

Originally posted by Bort

Some notes I would like to add for consideration as we work/re-look at this:

- I was actually toying with the idea a while back of having blockers have the ability to go the wrong way when trying to cut off a player, or to fall off balance on their own if they needed to make a quick move back over at more than 100 degrees or so. Nobody really seemed to like the idea so I ditched it.

- I can very easily play with the radius for avoidance on elusive pass rush to try different settings, to make the "corner" bigger or smaller.

- I have also thought at times of adding some sort of "is_backpedaling" flag to pass blockers, which would give them a penalty to blocking when backing up.

- Most people have seemed to want us to "let the builds sort it out."

Originally posted by thehazyone

normally I'd agree with letting builds sort it out, but when it takes a 30 difference in three key attributes to become a 15 sack a season pass rusher, then I think some other things need to happen.

I like the ideas you mention - something tautology mentioned too is that the QB backpedals very fast - is there a way you can slow that down?

A couple comments on Bort's notes...

- The battle between a DE and an OT is really a game within a game. The top sack masters of our generation talk about all the head games that go on during these matchups. They'll spend half a game setting up one move on a crucial third down. DEs have some great SAs, but what they really need is some way to fake out the OT. DEs will spin, swim, rip, and juke their way to the QB. Right now its basically just run right at the OT or run towards his outside shoulder. Some more variety would be nice. VAs are probably the best way to add it too.

- Evasive rush shouldn't necessarily be follow outside path to QB. It should be..."go where ever the OT is not." If the OT drops his kick slide too deep, the DE would be smart to kick back inside. Looking at the first play Hazy posted...the LT leaves a gaping hole between him and the LG...but the RE goes after the LT instead of just running right at the QB. If he sees an unobstructed path to the QB, that should override all other pathing. Vision should probably be a part of this algorithm as well.

- I like the idea of an "is_backpedaling" flag, but instead of blocking, have it hurt strength. When you're blocking forward, you can get all of your leg drive into it and use your full strength. When you're backpedaling, you are mainly limited to your upper body strength.

Originally posted by UMBF

- The battle between a DE and an OT is really a game within a game. The top sack masters of our generation talk about all the head games that go on during these matchups. They'll spend half a game setting up one move on a crucial third down.

I interviewed a DE prospect a few years back who dominated at the Div-1AA(now known as the FCS) level and wrote an article on him. His name was Brent Hawkins out of Illinois State. He was a beast for the RedBirds...his gamefilm was ridiculous!

His D-Line coach was Bill Teerlinck, son of John Teerlinck...d-line coach of the Colts. To no surprise, you could see a lot of similarities in Hawkins' technique and that of Freeney and Mathis.

In the article article, Hawkins' described the mental side of the DE/OT matchup when I asked him about a SICK inside spin fake he used to get a sack in the Hula Bowl:

"Brent Hawkins (on the inside spin fake): "Rushing the passer is about setting your man up and letting him think he is in control. That is exactly what I did. I spun the play before that but I did it early so he could feel my body control. The next play I knew that he thought I would do it again. So I got the man upfield just a little more, fake spun and that was that. All those set ups and moves eventually led to a sack."

If anybody is interested, you can read the full article here: http://wildbillschiefs.com/cgi-bin/commentary.cgi?action=display&num=385


Originally posted by UMBF
- I like the idea of an "is_backpedaling" flag, but instead of blocking, have it hurt strength...

...and balance - to be modified possibly by agility and confidence. This way I think we'd get the 'Mathis Effect' where a smaller, weaker but considerably faster & more agile DE could knockdown an OT or drive the OT into the QB's lap (sorry for the picture that might have painted but it's foobtall/scout speak) thus adding to the collapse of the pocket. And, as you stated, some inside moves/pathing would be nice as well.

Originally posted by thehazyone


Another problem I think is that the QB's are getting rid of the ball too quickly - I'm not sure if that's a matter of vision working too well or if it's a function of the way the passing game is coded. The following play is a good example of what I'm talking about:



This might be the PRIMARY problem. IMO the passing game is still messed up all around.

Offensive advantage
1. QBs are able to read and react way too fast. They get rid of the ball faster before they could possibly have taken a 3 step drop at times.

2. QBs are way too accurate when throwing into tight coverage, double coverage, etc.

3. There appears to be no effect of cumulative pressure on a QB. It doesn't matter if he has been hurried 4 times in 3 quarters, or 34 times, the next hurry will have the exact same effect (virtually nothing).


Defensive advantage
1. QBs still do a bad job of leading WRs (although it is better and acutally this sometimes becomes an offensive advantage when WR stops and CB keeps running.)

2. QBs still do a poor job of reading defenses and throwing to the appropriate target.

3. QBs sometimes seem to have more trouble throwing to a wide open receiver than a covered one. I wouldn't mind seeing a tester run 2 games, all plays 5 WR, defense quarter 100% man, cover 2

Both games WRs have 102 speed, 85 agility, 68 catching, 61 vision, 61 jumping, (40 confidence, stamina, carrying, strength.)

Game 1 CBs have 100 speed, 83 agility, 30 catching, 70 vision, 48 jumping, (40s)
Game 2 CBs have 85 speed, 65 agility, 48 catching, 68 vision, 61 jumping, (40s)


Then watch PbP and see what % of passes were completed when target was well covered (at least one defensive dot touching their dot when pass is thrown) vs what % was completed when defender did not have good coverage at time of throw.

Originally posted by thehazyone
Is there a way you can make the QB come to a stop before getting the throw off? That would be more realistic (and if they sense hurry pressure after stopping, then they could move around and you could use various attributes to determine that behavior)

Or, if they donīt stop to set their feet, pass quality and velocity take a major hit.

Thanks Hazy this has been needed for a while. It would be nice to actually get sacks against comparable competition. In SEA Pro, taking out the CPU teams game, there were 1,102 pass attempts and 20 sacks by DEs or DTs. Thats terrible imo.

Anything that can be done will be much appreciated.

thanks hazy - i hope bort can make some adjustments for this season - otherwise we're talking 30% of a DE's career being shortened by ridonkulous nerfs

Hazy,

Thank you for taking a look at this and bringing it to Bort's attention. You're starting to give me a little bit of hope that this game may start turning around.

Thanks hazy, good stuff.

Excellent...everyone knew there was a problem...but this really opens your eyes as to how bad it is.

Hopefully Bort will take action.

Great tests man! I think it's funny that Bort has meddled in the DE/OT interaction for seasons and finally wants to 'let builds sort it out' now that there's a 90 SP difference required. I'm not sure how builds are supposed to sort that one out.

Hopefully Bort fixes whatever is needed to bring a little balance back into this part of the game.

I'd love to see a 3-4 LB pass-rush test like this too...that is broken as well. If Bort doesn't address the problem by weakening the O-line or blocking, the problem will still persist in other matchups (LBs vs OTs, LBs vs Gs, DT vs Gs.)

I call the One Two Charge.. Which is a combination of Swim agility and First step......Speed should not play a big factor in a sack.. But is still need to catch the HB.

Heres a example of what Borts team is could go back too.. http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=154135&pbp_id=6731809

The RT looks lame. He really can not back peddle.. Maybe if Bort made the DE and OT equal back peddlers......... ?..


Heres a example of a the move that Borts team has Nerfed back in season 6. http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=154135&pbp_id=6731833 The One Two Charge.

Thats all Swim Agility and First step.. Most of the time the QB is only 1-2 steps away..

The problem is just what you said. Speed is a big part of a sack these days and DEs are loaded up on it.

If all borts Team is gunna do is fix the back peddle then there will be a ton of sacks.

In the first 5 seasons agility was the main attribute in a DE.. Then crybabys started screaming that the DEs had to many sacks.

So Bort toned down the agility and made OTs more agile w/o having the skill. This destroyed all good DE builds.

But the the DEs started adding a shitload of speed and really started teeing off on the QB.. So then Bort made it so the OTs could back peddle as fast as a DEs can run forwards. Now sacks are rare.

If Bort slows down the OTs back peddle and there are DEs with a shitload of speed then the OTs are gunna have one hell of a time stopping them.. It will be season 6 all over again.


IMO Borts teams needs to make agility more of a factor in DTs and DEs...


Great Job on the testing BTW... Made a lot of sense..