Warrior General Games

Originally posted by PinTBC
Taut,

We've been playing with different builds on DE.

On two different teams we have:

60 str, 90+ Spd, 74+ Agil (10 first step, 10 shed block, 9 tunnel vision)

55 str, 74 speed, 90+ agil

70 str, 65 spd, and 84 agil

90+ str, 67 spd, and 68 agil

81 str, 76 speed, and 71 agil (This particular guy has 13 shed block)

All have more than 60 vision, with mid 50s to mid 60s in tackle.

Not one of those DEs are performing at what I would consider a decent rate. Our last game (bottom four DEs) was against a CPU team, and the DEs had almost no effect on the game.

So, you may be perfectly correct that these DEs may or may not be built correctly for specific tasks, but there should be decent uses for each type..

The Strength based should be good at holding the line against a TE or OT, specially with decent Agility to match the tackle.

The speed guy certainly should be able to beat the tackle to the corner, he may not be able to make the turn to get to the QB, but with his speed, if he avoids the tackle (decent agility) he certainly should be able to be a factor in an outside pitch.

The Balanced guys should be decent all around, supposedly that is what the Sim is being designed for...

Yet in 2 games (one against a CPU team) the last four DEs on that list have 0 sacks, and 1 hurry.. To go along with minimal tackles.

PinTBC

I don't disagree that there is a problem...the "sweet spot" for DEs seems to be very specific, probably too specific. I too have played around quite a bit, and I have found that a wide variety of DE builds just don't do anything except fall over occasionally...and that is frustrating. And the fact that CPU opponents can fend you off is equally frustrating (haven't had that happen to me...not sure what that's about honestly).

My only point is that there are *some* possible builds that have decent performance, and at least one path for dominant performance...it's not as though the door is completely closed. It's all a matter of scale, in my mind. I think the outrageous numbers in season 6 set the bar way high for what a "dominant DE" ought to look like, and while there is an issue, we should also take an objective look at what is possible right now.

DEs have some impact, they are not invisible. Just a little hard to spot in some games

Originally posted by CDZYO
Originally posted by jrry32

Has Bort even made 1 post in this thread?

Earlier this morning, in fact: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2519063&page=13

Originally posted by Bort

I'll check it out later tonight hazy; I saw that the games were run. I've just got lots of random little things distracting me today. I want to thank you publicly here for your efforts!

Meh, not really what I was hoping for.

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by jrry32

Originally posted by tautology


Originally posted by PinTBC



Hazy,

The time in the pocket by the QB only fixes part of the problem with DEs. As an example, a team I DC for just had a game where the other team ran around the weak end maybe ten times. The DE on that side has a speed of 90+, an agility of 74+ and a vision in the mid 60s. He was not pancaked a single time in the game, and yet not a single time did he manage to get outside to stop the HB around the end.

He closed directly with the OT, and engaged him, only to stand there flailing uselessly as the HB went around him.

That is a problem if a decently fast DE can't seal the outside, or at the very least get involved with the play.

PinTBC

That is a build issue in my experience...it is very possible to have DEs work well at containment. The build you suggest isn't one of them however.

The problem seems limited to pass rush pressure and DEs, I think (meaning DTs and LBs seem to get adequate pressure if built to pass rush).

Taut, if anything that's what a containment build is. If we are talking real life, the strength DEs bullrush in to get the TFLs while the weaker faster DEs are used to seal off the edge.


I take your point...however, I still find that containment builds are very possible in this game, its just that particular build just doesn't perform at containment in GLB.

I know Taut, I was just making a point of realism vs. GLB and how the realists are completely hypocritical. They are easily possible. I have 1 on my team, my LDE Woodley is a speed/strength DE that makes a bunch of tackles at LOS and constantly disrupts plays.(whether it be running over the RT and allowing the LB to make the play by taking on the FB or making the play himself)

Originally posted by PDO
This is becoming a classic case of addressing a symptom instead of a problem....

The problem of DE sacks is DE/OT interaction.

The symptom is the amount of sacks.

Wrong problem...ALL passrushers aren't getting production right now. The problem is passrushing vs blocking, not DEs vs OTs.

Originally posted by Lancer1997
Originally posted by cashpath

IN the NFL most teams are fairly equal...

We just played a game where our lvl 22 DE's managed to get ZERO sacks agains LVL 1 OT's

http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=559287

That team passed the ball 53 times..

Luckily my fat slow NT got 1 sack.. against the lvl 1 guards and Center. hmm..


There is something wrong with pass rushing and sacks..

But, QB vision will fix this. /sarcasm

QB vision will fix some of it. Now Bort just needs to make 1 or 2 more very minor changes. They will all add up to where the passrushing/ blocking interaction should be.

Originally posted by oronis
Originally posted by Lancer1997

Originally posted by cashpath


IN the NFL most teams are fairly equal...

We just played a game where our lvl 22 DE's managed to get ZERO sacks agains LVL 1 OT's

http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=559287

That team passed the ball 53 times..

Luckily my fat slow NT got 1 sack.. against the lvl 1 guards and Center. hmm..


There is something wrong with pass rushing and sacks..

But, QB vision will fix this. /sarcasm

QB vision will fix some of it. Now Bort just needs to make 1 or 2 more very minor changes. They will all add up to where the passrushing/ blocking interaction should be.



I don't think you are getting this. DL people just don't want stats, we want to have the broken DL/OL interaction fixed. Making QBs decide slower is only fixing half the problem, you still have ridiculously overpowered OLs especially OTs.

Originally posted by jrry32
Originally posted by PinTBC

Hazy,

The time in the pocket by the QB only fixes part of the problem with DEs. As an example, a team I DC for just had a game where the other team ran around the weak end maybe ten times. The DE on that side has a speed of 90+, an agility of 74+ and a vision in the mid 60s. He was not pancaked a single time in the game, and yet not a single time did he manage to get outside to stop the HB around the end.

He closed directly with the OT, and engaged him, only to stand there flailing uselessly as the HB went around him.

That is a problem if a decently fast DE can't seal the outside, or at the very least get involved with the play.

PinTBC

Agreed.


Well, speaking from offensive side of the ball. If speed DE and rushing on elusive is all you need to stop the outside run, then there is really no reason to run the ball any more. Yes, I agree with that a DE rushing up field should be able to blow up the toss play to that side, however, DE rushing up field will get killed by trap plays. Unfortunately currently we don't have any trap plays in the playbook. Until we do, I guess we have to allow HBs to run around sometimes.

And it is probably a build issue. I do see many RDEs make that tackle as well.

Originally posted by datongw
Originally posted by jrry32

Originally posted by PinTBC


Hazy,

The time in the pocket by the QB only fixes part of the problem with DEs. As an example, a team I DC for just had a game where the other team ran around the weak end maybe ten times. The DE on that side has a speed of 90+, an agility of 74+ and a vision in the mid 60s. He was not pancaked a single time in the game, and yet not a single time did he manage to get outside to stop the HB around the end.

He closed directly with the OT, and engaged him, only to stand there flailing uselessly as the HB went around him.

That is a problem if a decently fast DE can't seal the outside, or at the very least get involved with the play.

PinTBC

Agreed.


Well, speaking from offensive side of the ball. If speed DE and rushing on elusive is all you need to stop the outside run, then there is really no reason to run the ball any more. Yes, I agree with that a DE rushing up field should be able to blow up the toss play to that side, however, DE rushing up field will get killed by trap plays. Unfortunately currently we don't have any trap plays in the playbook. Until we do, I guess we have to allow HBs to run around sometimes.

And it is probably a build issue. I do see many RDEs make that tackle as well.

Datong, I agree the game really isn't complex enough at this point for that to work but at some point, there needs to be more complexity added to it.(and the fucking screwed interaction needs to be fixed)

I totally agree with you Jrry, DEs are pretty much worthless right now. I just want to make sure that whatever changes Bort makes, it is sensible and not overdone, which is too many times the case with changes in GLB.

Has there been any indication that Bort even views this as an issue, and if it is being worked on? All these tests show is what we are all seeing anyway.

Could QBs be the problem with DEs not getting sacks? Obviously. Hazy's tests have proven that.

Are OTs still overpowered? Absolutely. I've seen WAY too many plays with OTs blocking 2-3 blitzing/pass rushing players to think that OTs are on the same plane as any defensive player right now.

The game is too far overbalanced on the offensive side right now in the theory that if the offensive numbers look good then people will continue to play. If people get their offenses (or offensive players) shut down, they won't pay flex to boost them and therefore drop the game's active playerbase down.

I don't think defensive players will ever get a good boost or balance towards their offensive counterparts because it's "good business" for the current future. The only problem is that people who currently own defensive players are going to retire them much before their declination date and turn this game into an offensively heavy game, which will end up dropping the number of overall teams because they won't be able to field a full defense.

I love this game and have high hopes for it, but I don't think Bort will ever come close to balancing defensive and offensive players. Sad fact, but that's what I believe.

I think one of the main issues is that DEs are by far the hardest players to make productive. You have to pretty much steal Jimmy Johnston's build and slowbuild specifically to have a hope of making an impact. That isn't really the case at other positions. I think we get so mad because we've spent hours researching and months slow-building and then we get locked down by some moron OT who has no idea how to build.

Unless you're incredibly lucky, you're going to strike out as a DE no matter how hard you try.

Let's go back to this game: http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=559287

A level 1 o-line held off a level 22 d-line. That's absolutely ridiculous. There is a massive, massive problem, when a set of players who haven't even started to develop are able to pass and run on a set of players who have had, what, two seasons to develop? If I were to take a level 1 player in WoW and attack a level 22 creature (let alone a level 22 player) he would be destroyed every single time, and in WoW players get to level 70+. In GLB we are going to max out around level 65 before our skills start to decline, and yet a 22 level difference isn't enough for total domination.

Yes, the score in the above mentioned game was 170-7, but all of the production was on the high level ST, secondary and offense. 3 hurries, 1 sack, and 37 rushing yards, 4 TFLs, and 1 forced fumble. The level 14 FB was able to break 3 tackles. Even the best rolled level 1s in the game vs the worst built level 22s in the game shouldn't be able to run or pass in this sort of situation.

This game proves to me that the defensive line cannot pass rush or defend against the run effectively. Changing the QB's reaction time might be an easy way to paint over the problem and make things look better, but it isn't the solution.

I refuse to believe this is an impossible problem to solve - it might take some rethinking and recoding of the blocking/shed block system but it's doable. We all know that football games are won in the trenches, yet instead of making that part of the game work, VAs, and fame, and MVP stuff is getting added. Let's go back to the sim and fix the basic interaction on the line and then add the extras.

T

I just hope it doesn't get screwed up again and goes back to 10+ sacks per game against reasonably well built tackles.

feast or famine so it seems.

Originally posted by tsherr
Let's go back to this game: http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=559287

A level 1 o-line held off a level 22 d-line. That's absolutely ridiculous. There is a massive, massive problem, when a set of players who haven't even started to develop are able to pass and run on a set of players who have had, what, two seasons to develop? If I were to take a level 1 player in WoW and attack a level 22 creature (let alone a level 22 player) he would be destroyed every single time, and in WoW players get to level 70+. In GLB we are going to max out around level 65 before our skills start to decline, and yet a 22 level difference isn't enough for total domination.

Yes, the score in the above mentioned game was 170-7, but all of the production was on the high level ST, secondary and offense. 3 hurries, 1 sack, and 37 rushing yards, 4 TFLs, and 1 forced fumble. The level 14 FB was able to break 3 tackles. Even the best rolled level 1s in the game vs the worst built level 22s in the game shouldn't be able to run or pass in this sort of situation.

This game proves to me that the defensive line cannot pass rush or defend against the run effectively. Changing the QB's reaction time might be an easy way to paint over the problem and make things look better, but it isn't the solution.

I refuse to believe this is an impossible problem to solve - it might take some rethinking and recoding of the blocking/shed block system but it's doable. We all know that football games are won in the trenches, yet instead of making that part of the game work, VAs, and fame, and MVP stuff is getting added. Let's go back to the sim and fix the basic interaction on the line and then add the extras.

T

That is absolutely stupid retarded. No one can do what the Giants do, rush 4 and drop 7, because there defensive line can stop the run and the pass mostly by themselves. I bet their is not one team in GLB that can do that.