Warrior General Games

Yeah, I gotta agree.

lvl 50+ DEs not sacking QBs, when going against CPU OTs, is not going to be fixed with adjusting anything to do with QBs.

Blocking needs to be seriously looked at.

This is becoming a classic case of addressing a symptom instead of a problem....

The problem of DE sacks is DE/OT interaction.

The symptom is the amount of sacks.

Originally posted by PDO
This is becoming a classic case of addressing a symptom instead of a problem....

The symptom of DE sacks is DE/OT interaction.

The problem is the amount of sacks.

I think you mean that the other way around.

T

Blockers rotate their bodies better when run blocking to better get in between the ball carrier and tackler


This was one of the new updates for this seasons sim. I like don't get me wrong. My question is. Can the d-line do the same?
Does it work both ways? I see time and time again the D-linemen get the jump off the snap. But when they get to the outside shoulder(I know its a Dot he doesn't have shoulders) it seems the OT can just bump them once then get back in front of them. Shouldn't the D-linemen in that situation be able to turn the O-linemen into the QB?

I hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by tsherr
Originally posted by PDO

This is becoming a classic case of addressing a symptom instead of a problem....

The symptom of DE sacks is DE/OT interaction.

The problem is the amount of sacks.

I think you mean that the other way around.

T

Fixed.

Clearly losing my mind

Originally posted by PinTBC
Hazy,

The time in the pocket by the QB only fixes part of the problem with DEs. As an example, a team I DC for just had a game where the other team ran around the weak end maybe ten times. The DE on that side has a speed of 90+, an agility of 74+ and a vision in the mid 60s. He was not pancaked a single time in the game, and yet not a single time did he manage to get outside to stop the HB around the end.

He closed directly with the OT, and engaged him, only to stand there flailing uselessly as the HB went around him.

That is a problem if a decently fast DE can't seal the outside, or at the very least get involved with the play.

PinTBC

We've been saying this all thread. Yes, there is a sack issue and yes, QBs are way too 'aware', but the ultimate issue is back at the line between the blockers and rushing defenders (not just De/OT) and the fact that the mechanic in place to govern that interaction is completely hosed.

Until that gets fixed all adjustments will be wrong, all conclusions suspect. If we 'nerf' QBs to allow hurries to translate to sacks, we'll have artificially boosted the sack numbers to some goal amount for imaginary players- but we wont have fixed the root problem. The root issue must be identified and resolved and it cannot wait until S10.

Still not understanding why we cannot undo the nerf that was imposed in Season 6?

Originally posted by PinTBC
Hazy,

The time in the pocket by the QB only fixes part of the problem with DEs. As an example, a team I DC for just had a game where the other team ran around the weak end maybe ten times. The DE on that side has a speed of 90+, an agility of 74+ and a vision in the mid 60s. He was not pancaked a single time in the game, and yet not a single time did he manage to get outside to stop the HB around the end.

He closed directly with the OT, and engaged him, only to stand there flailing uselessly as the HB went around him.

That is a problem if a decently fast DE can't seal the outside, or at the very least get involved with the play.

PinTBC

That is a build issue in my experience...it is very possible to have DEs work well at containment. The build you suggest isn't one of them however.

The problem seems limited to pass rush pressure and DEs, I think (meaning DTs and LBs seem to get adequate pressure if built to pass rush).

Originally posted by PinTBC
Hazy,

The time in the pocket by the QB only fixes part of the problem with DEs. As an example, a team I DC for just had a game where the other team ran around the weak end maybe ten times. The DE on that side has a speed of 90+, an agility of 74+ and a vision in the mid 60s. He was not pancaked a single time in the game, and yet not a single time did he manage to get outside to stop the HB around the end.

He closed directly with the OT, and engaged him, only to stand there flailing uselessly as the HB went around him.

That is a problem if a decently fast DE can't seal the outside, or at the very least get involved with the play.

PinTBC

Agreed.

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by PinTBC

Hazy,

The time in the pocket by the QB only fixes part of the problem with DEs. As an example, a team I DC for just had a game where the other team ran around the weak end maybe ten times. The DE on that side has a speed of 90+, an agility of 74+ and a vision in the mid 60s. He was not pancaked a single time in the game, and yet not a single time did he manage to get outside to stop the HB around the end.

He closed directly with the OT, and engaged him, only to stand there flailing uselessly as the HB went around him.

That is a problem if a decently fast DE can't seal the outside, or at the very least get involved with the play.

PinTBC

That is a build issue in my experience...it is very possible to have DEs work well at containment. The build you suggest isn't one of them however.

The problem seems limited to pass rush pressure and DEs, I think (meaning DTs and LBs seem to get adequate pressure if built to pass rush).

Taut, if anything that's what a containment build is. If we are talking real life, the strength DEs bullrush in to get the TFLs while the weaker faster DEs are used to seal off the edge.

Originally posted by Lancer1997
Still not understanding why we cannot undo the nerf that was imposed in Season 6?

Has Bort even made 1 post in this thread? If he hasn't, it would at least be nice to know that he's paying attention to what we're saying instead of him only seeing what the testers are saying. I mean Bort, I think you have read this thread. Just give us some responses to what we are saying, it's a little disheartening that all we are getting is quotes from the test forum by hazy.(hazy is doing a hell of a job BTW but I want to know the big man is reading this and realizing it's not just the QBs, it's the whole OL/DL interaction that's broken)

Just for reference...I *do* think there are issues that should be addressed, but I am not convinced that it is a DE/OT interaction problem. I also think the amount of furor is slightly, though not entirely, disproportionate to the scale of the DE issue.

It does need to be addressed. But take a look below....analysis and thoughts are welcome, flames and trolling will be ignored (by me at least).


Here are all the plays from my last game where the DEs had a meaningful role. My opponent was the 15-1 conference champion whom we beat in the SA AAA#1 league championship game last year, and they are 58-2 over their last 60 games...for whatever that is worth. Levels are generally in my opponent's favor.

In my mind, I look at the body of work below and I feel like my DEs had a pretty reasonable impact on the game...which is all I really ask for

Held ground, made the play…fairly standard.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1572697


Meaningful pocket collapse with a 3 man rush
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1573204

Standard containment
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1573349

Very nice penetration from the LDE…with decent tackling he makes the sack here I think (his tackling sucks)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1573377


LDE at least knocks down the ROT…that’s progress.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1573416

Nice 4th down stop.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1573432


LDE beats his man, he’s just a little slow to get there.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1575153

RDE drags the powerback so Oscar can make the stop.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1575182

LDE is way too slow to make this kind of play, but at least he walks over and punches the QB in the mouth.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1575749

More excellent containment
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1577068

RDE definitely beats his man here…pass is too quick (rushed?)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1577108

Random deflection…useful.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1577620

Quality sack from the right side…level 50 LOT.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1578183

Nice containment again
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1578441

LDE breaks though again…just too slow.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546084&pbp_id=1578507

Originally posted by jrry32
Originally posted by tautology

Originally posted by PinTBC


Hazy,

The time in the pocket by the QB only fixes part of the problem with DEs. As an example, a team I DC for just had a game where the other team ran around the weak end maybe ten times. The DE on that side has a speed of 90+, an agility of 74+ and a vision in the mid 60s. He was not pancaked a single time in the game, and yet not a single time did he manage to get outside to stop the HB around the end.

He closed directly with the OT, and engaged him, only to stand there flailing uselessly as the HB went around him.

That is a problem if a decently fast DE can't seal the outside, or at the very least get involved with the play.

PinTBC

That is a build issue in my experience...it is very possible to have DEs work well at containment. The build you suggest isn't one of them however.

The problem seems limited to pass rush pressure and DEs, I think (meaning DTs and LBs seem to get adequate pressure if built to pass rush).

Taut, if anything that's what a containment build is. If we are talking real life, the strength DEs bullrush in to get the TFLs while the weaker faster DEs are used to seal off the edge.


I take your point...however, I still find that containment builds are very possible in this game, its just that particular build just doesn't perform at containment in GLB.

Taut,

We've been playing with different builds on DE.

On two different teams we have:

60 str, 90+ Spd, 74+ Agil (10 first step, 10 shed block, 9 tunnel vision)

55 str, 74 speed, 90+ agil

70 str, 65 spd, and 84 agil

90+ str, 67 spd, and 68 agil

81 str, 76 speed, and 71 agil (This particular guy has 13 shed block)

All have more than 60 vision, with mid 50s to mid 60s in tackle.

Not one of those DEs are performing at what I would consider a decent rate. Our last game (bottom four DEs) was against a CPU team, and the DEs had almost no effect on the game.

So, you may be perfectly correct that these DEs may or may not be built correctly for specific tasks, but there should be decent uses for each type..

The Strength based should be good at holding the line against a TE or OT, specially with decent Agility to match the tackle.

The speed guy certainly should be able to beat the tackle to the corner, he may not be able to make the turn to get to the QB, but with his speed, if he avoids the tackle (decent agility) he certainly should be able to be a factor in an outside pitch.

The Balanced guys should be decent all around, supposedly that is what the Sim is being designed for...

Yet in 2 games (one against a CPU team) the last four DEs on that list have 0 sacks, and 1 hurry.. To go along with minimal tackles.

PinTBC

Originally posted by jrry32
Has Bort even made 1 post in this thread?

Earlier this morning, in fact: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2519063&page=13

Originally posted by Bort
I'll check it out later tonight hazy; I saw that the games were run. I've just got lots of random little things distracting me today. I want to thank you publicly here for your efforts!