Warrior General Games

Originally posted by evilmonkey
I just hope it doesn't get screwed up again and goes back to 10+ sacks per game against reasonably well built tackles.

feast or famine so it seems.

I don't think there was ever a time when DEs got 10+ sacks per game against well-built tackles. They got lots of sacks against OTs who had only focused on Strength and Blocking, but the OTs that had 3rd capped agility were generally able to stop them. My now-retired-due-to-boredom-because-building-OTs-is-easier-than-falling-out-of-bed OT rarely gave up many sacks in season 6 once he 3rd capped agility and got his speed up near the first cap.

As some evidence to this, you can look at Julius Dee in season 5 ( http://goallineblitz.com/game/player_game_log.pl?season=5&player_id=123897 ), who was one of the true monster DEs at the time. There were teams that were a couple of teams that were able to hold him to a sack or two. In season 6 ( http://goallineblitz.com/game/player_game_log.pl?season=6&player_id=123897 ), once the OT builds started to get better, many teams were able to shut him out.

Originally posted by Gyuri1
Originally posted by evilmonkey

I just hope it doesn't get screwed up again and goes back to 10+ sacks per game against reasonably well built tackles.

feast or famine so it seems.

I don't think there was ever a time when DEs got 10+ sacks per game against well-built tackles. They got lots of sacks against OTs who had only focused on Strength and Blocking, but the OTs that had 3rd capped agility were generally able to stop them. My now-retired-due-to-boredom-because-building-OTs-is-easier-than-falling-out-of-bed OT rarely gave up many sacks in season 6 once he 3rd capped agility and got his speed up near the first cap.

As some evidence to this, you can look at Julius Dee in season 5 ( http://goallineblitz.com/game/player_game_log.pl?season=5&player_id=123897 ), who was one of the true monster DEs at the time. There were teams that were a couple of teams that were able to hold him to a sack or two. In season 6 ( http://goallineblitz.com/game/player_game_log.pl?season=6&player_id=123897 ), once the OT builds started to get better, many teams were able to shut him out.

David Amazing got shutout (sacks-wise) three times in season 6 as well http://goallineblitz.com/game/player_game_log.pl?season=6&player_id=164305 so it wasn't like the top DEs dominated every team.

Also, not really DE related, but it makes me sad that DTs are weaker this season as well with the removal of attributes VAs. Pass rush just keeps getting nerfed more and more each season.

Originally posted by Motiak
Also, not really DE related, but it makes me sad that DTs are weaker this season as well with the removal of attributes VAs. Pass rush just keeps getting nerfed more and more each season.

This also impacts run defense as well, since NTs are largely getting overrun. As has been stated several times, the d-line is effectively beaten and beaten badly by the o-line, even if they outlevel them.

T

Originally posted by jrry32

I don't think you are getting this. DL people just don't want stats, we want to have the broken DL/OL interaction fixed. Making QBs decide slower is only fixing half the problem, you still have ridiculously overpowered OLs especially OTs.



No, I get it. I referenced Bort needing to make 2 or 3 minor changes. I think the QB vision adjustments, a tiny nerf to blocking radius, and a minor new feature (nerf) to all o-line when they backpedal losing balance, and the sim would be just fine. I don't think there needs to be any large changes to fix the game.

It seems to me that the interaction between the o-line and the d-line needs to be fixed. Basically, I see it as a situation of balance - the person who still has his balance has control of situation. So when a DE rushes an OT, he can either try to use strength to knock the OT off balance and then push him back into the QB or out of the way or (in more extreme cases) pancake him, or he can use his agility to get the OT off balance and brush past him. If the OT maintains control of the contact, then either he can keep the DE off balance and either push him outside into a long curve around the QB (as often happens in the NFL) or in extreme cases, pancake him. So basically the code should work something like:

Bull rush DE:
1)Check for contact
2)If there is contact, check to see who maintains his balance (it can be the OT, DE, or both)
3)If one of them starts to lose his balance each additional check make it harder for that player to regain his balance. If balance passes a certain point, a pancake would occur.

Evasive DE:
1)DE makes a move
2)Check for contact (based on blocking radius) - if the OT fails contact, then he could still begin to lose his balance.
3)If there is contact, check to see who maintains balance. On each following tick, contact/balance would be checked, and whoever had worse balance would either begin to be pushed out of the way (in the case of the DE) or bypassed (in the case of the OT.) In extreme cases, a pancake would occur.

The same sort of thing would also handle interaction between any of the o-line and d-line players, I would think.

Perhaps that's the way it works now, but it doesn't seem like it. Right now it seems like the OT always gets contact and then it turns out into a strength struggle that the DE loses in most cases. (Even though the DE would the have advantage of momentum on his side.)

T

Originally posted by tsherr
It seems to me that the interaction between the o-line and the d-line needs to be fixed. Basically, I see it as a situation of balance - the person who still has his balance has control of situation. So when a DE rushes an OT, he can either try to use strength to knock the OT off balance and then push him back into the QB or out of the way or (in more extreme cases) pancake him, or he can use his agility to get the OT off balance and brush past him. If the OT maintains control of the contact, then either he can keep the DE off balance and either push him outside into a long curve around the QB (as often happens in the NFL) or in extreme cases, pancake him. So basically the code should work something like:

Bull rush DE:
1)Check for contact
2)If there is contact, check to see who maintains his balance (it can be the OT, DE, or both)
3)If one of them starts to lose his balance each additional check make it harder for that player to regain his balance. If balance passes a certain point, a pancake would occur.

Evasive DE:
1)DE makes a move
2)Check for contact (based on blocking radius) - if the OT fails contact, then he could still begin to lose his balance.
3)If there is contact, check to see who maintains balance. On each following tick, contact/balance would be checked, and whoever had worse balance would either begin to be pushed out of the way (in the case of the DE) or bypassed (in the case of the OT.) In extreme cases, a pancake would occur.

The same sort of thing would also handle interaction between any of the o-line and d-line players, I would think.

Perhaps that's the way it works now, but it doesn't seem like it. Right now it seems like the OT always gets contact and then it turns out into a strength struggle that the DE loses in most cases. (Even though the DE would the have advantage of momentum on his side.)

T

2 or 3 seasons ago, Bort didn't like how the slow OTs weren't making contact with speed DEs so he changed the mechanics of the sim. Since then, OTs have gotten faster and more agile. Perhaps its time Bort dug up that 'fix' and either tones it down or removes it.

Originally posted by tsherr
It seems to me that the interaction between the o-line and the d-line needs to be fixed. Basically, I see it as a situation of balance - the person who still has his balance has control of situation. So when a DE rushes an OT, he can either try to use strength to knock the OT off balance and then push him back into the QB or out of the way or (in more extreme cases) pancake him, or he can use his agility to get the OT off balance and brush past him. If the OT maintains control of the contact, then either he can keep the DE off balance and either push him outside into a long curve around the QB (as often happens in the NFL) or in extreme cases, pancake him. So basically the code should work something like:

Bull rush DE:
1)Check for contact
2)If there is contact, check to see who maintains his balance (it can be the OT, DE, or both)
3)If one of them starts to lose his balance each additional check make it harder for that player to regain his balance. If balance passes a certain point, a pancake would occur.

Evasive DE:
1)DE makes a move
2)Check for contact (based on blocking radius) - if the OT fails contact, then he could still begin to lose his balance.
3)If there is contact, check to see who maintains balance. On each following tick, contact/balance would be checked, and whoever had worse balance would either begin to be pushed out of the way (in the case of the DE) or bypassed (in the case of the OT.) In extreme cases, a pancake would occur.

The same sort of thing would also handle interaction between any of the o-line and d-line players, I would think.

Perhaps that's the way it works now, but it doesn't seem like it. Right now it seems like the OT always gets contact and then it turns out into a strength struggle that the DE loses in most cases. (Even though the DE would the have advantage of momentum on his side.)

T

Actually, in my experience this *is* pretty close to how it works (except there is a hold block/break block element that generally precedes the balance/fall down check).

The OT/DE struggle is *not* simply a strength struggle...of that I am 100% certain. And momentum certainly makes a difference in the current sim.

I actually think you are describing the current interaction pretty accurately...and I do think the fundamental structure is sound. It might need a little tweaking around the edges.

Folks who are asking to revert to the season 6 sim, which was really a change in initial O-line reaction and pocket formation...I am not sure that I agree. I like the look of the current pocket formation, I would prefer that we find ways to adjust things while keeping the current pocket formation.

jmho, on that.

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by tsherr

It seems to me that the interaction between the o-line and the d-line needs to be fixed. Basically, I see it as a situation of balance - the person who still has his balance has control of situation. So when a DE rushes an OT, he can either try to use strength to knock the OT off balance and then push him back into the QB or out of the way or (in more extreme cases) pancake him, or he can use his agility to get the OT off balance and brush past him. If the OT maintains control of the contact, then either he can keep the DE off balance and either push him outside into a long curve around the QB (as often happens in the NFL) or in extreme cases, pancake him. So basically the code should work something like:

Bull rush DE:
1)Check for contact
2)If there is contact, check to see who maintains his balance (it can be the OT, DE, or both)
3)If one of them starts to lose his balance each additional check make it harder for that player to regain his balance. If balance passes a certain point, a pancake would occur.

Evasive DE:
1)DE makes a move
2)Check for contact (based on blocking radius) - if the OT fails contact, then he could still begin to lose his balance.
3)If there is contact, check to see who maintains balance. On each following tick, contact/balance would be checked, and whoever had worse balance would either begin to be pushed out of the way (in the case of the DE) or bypassed (in the case of the OT.) In extreme cases, a pancake would occur.

The same sort of thing would also handle interaction between any of the o-line and d-line players, I would think.

Perhaps that's the way it works now, but it doesn't seem like it. Right now it seems like the OT always gets contact and then it turns out into a strength struggle that the DE loses in most cases. (Even though the DE would the have advantage of momentum on his side.)

T

Actually, in my experience this *is* pretty close to how it works (except there is a hold block/break block element that generally precedes the balance/fall down check).

The OT/DE struggle is *not* simply a strength struggle...of that I am 100% certain. And momentum certainly makes a difference in the current sim.

I actually think you are describing the current interaction pretty accurately...and I do think the fundamental structure is sound. It might need a little tweaking around the edges.

Folks who are asking to revert to the season 6 sim, which was really a change in initial O-line reaction and pocket formation...I am not sure that I agree. I like the look of the current pocket formation, I would prefer that we find ways to adjust things while keeping the current pocket formation.

jmho, on that.

Except the struggle is broken in certain spots like the OTs should rarely be able to win the battle at the corner especially vs. DEs with similar strength to them but in GLB, if they hit you, they almost always win.

Originally posted by thehazyone
From the test server:

Originally posted by Bort



- I have also thought at times of adding some sort of "is_backpedaling" flag to pass blockers, which would give them a penalty to blocking when backing up.


Oh God yes....the effectiveness of a block thrown while backpedalling is just about nil, and will sometimes even be a reverse pancake.

Nice work, this should be implemented - there really needs to be a penalty/bonus for when a lineman engages his opponent before he is set up - this would achieve that in part.

It should work both ways, and on both run and pass.

Originally posted by OttawaShane
Originally posted by thehazyone

From the test server:

Originally posted by Bort




- I have also thought at times of adding some sort of "is_backpedaling" flag to pass blockers, which would give them a penalty to blocking when backing up.


Oh God yes....the effectiveness of a block thrown while backpedalling is just about nil, and will sometimes even be a reverse pancake.

Nice work, this should be implemented - there really needs to be a penalty/bonus for when a lineman engages his opponent before he is set up - this would achieve that in part.

It should work both ways, and on both run and pass.

Is this stuff supposed to be this season or next. Did we ever get confimation how mid-season fixes are going to be handled? Not sure if I ever heard the outcome of the poll.

Originally posted by OttawaShane
Originally posted by thehazyone

From the test server:

Originally posted by Bort




- I have also thought at times of adding some sort of "is_backpedaling" flag to pass blockers, which would give them a penalty to blocking when backing up.


Oh God yes....the effectiveness of a block thrown while backpedalling is just about nil, and will sometimes even be a reverse pancake.

Nice work, this should be implemented - there really needs to be a penalty/bonus for when a lineman engages his opponent before he is set up - this would achieve that in part.

It should work both ways, and on both run and pass.

This

Originally posted by Dacolts
Originally posted by OttawaShane

Originally posted by thehazyone


From the test server:

Originally posted by Bort





- I have also thought at times of adding some sort of "is_backpedaling" flag to pass blockers, which would give them a penalty to blocking when backing up.


Oh God yes....the effectiveness of a block thrown while backpedalling is just about nil, and will sometimes even be a reverse pancake.

Nice work, this should be implemented - there really needs to be a penalty/bonus for when a lineman engages his opponent before he is set up - this would achieve that in part.

It should work both ways, and on both run and pass.

Is this stuff supposed to be this season or next. Did we ever get confimation how mid-season fixes are going to be handled? Not sure if I ever heard the outcome of the poll.



don't boost. i don't figure you planned to boost your DE anyways because those SPs are pretty useless.

Originally posted by Dacolts
Originally posted by OttawaShane

Originally posted by thehazyone


From the test server:

Originally posted by Bort





- I have also thought at times of adding some sort of "is_backpedaling" flag to pass blockers, which would give them a penalty to blocking when backing up.


Oh God yes....the effectiveness of a block thrown while backpedalling is just about nil, and will sometimes even be a reverse pancake.

Nice work, this should be implemented - there really needs to be a penalty/bonus for when a lineman engages his opponent before he is set up - this would achieve that in part.

It should work both ways, and on both run and pass.

Is this stuff supposed to be this season or next. Did we ever get confimation how mid-season fixes are going to be handled? Not sure if I ever heard the outcome of the poll.



With 1 preseason game to go, this is an excellent question, I would like to know the answer myself.

where is the test of

100/100/100 WRs
vs
70/70/70 CBs

how about
100/100/100 HBs
vs
70/70/70 LBs