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Forum > Test Server Discussion > WR fake abilities and Pass rush tests
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TxSteve
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Originally posted by Motiak
I would think the DEs would be better served with some more str but still that is just crazy that DEs with 120/120 in agi/spd can barely get pressure.


not just 120/120 - also:
First Step: 10
Change Direction: 10
Shed Blocks: 10
Tunnel Vision: 10
Blitz: 4
Quick: 15
Track Star: 15
Heavyweight: 15
Jump the Snap: 15
Pass Rusher: 15
58% brk block AEQ

and on the other: -
First Step: 10
Change Direction: 10
Shed Blocks: 14
Tunnel Vision: 14
Big Sack: 0
Blitz: 4
Superior Vision: 4
Quick: 15
Track Star: 15
Clutch: 15
Jump the Snap: 15
Pass Rusher: 15


SA's clearly useless (and some VA's broken as well probably) - but Bort still won't give us more details on them - and per general tester comments - it's really not allowed to just test the SA's to see if they work (which they clearly don't) -

ya - that makes sense
 
PP
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Originally posted by TxSteve

Do you have to roll for the AEQ? or do you just get to pick the bonuses you want?


He now gives us 255 shopping tokens and 255 BTs...you have to roll for them.

Also, you can only make lvl 40 dots (expect for allowing Hazy to make 70s and us to copy his team), BUT you can edit skills up to 120. So, you can make the lvl 40s better in skills than any dot could be on the live server. The only catch is that they can only take their EQ/AEQ to lvl 40. However, you can easily get 4 pieces of AEQ (with the 255 shopping tokens. So, you can make that fairly realistic in a round about way.

The reason for explaining this is don't be fooled by seeing lvl 40s on the teams in these tests...They are far from lvl 40s, as shown by some of the builds pasted in my OP.

 
PP
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Test 2:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1495
Same goals as above...test passing and pass rushing dynamics, without blitzing

Jacksonville is again set to all short WR passes on 1st, all med WR passes on 2nd and all long WR passes on 3rd & 4th. Their D only plays cover 2, 4-1-6, against every formation

166 pass attempts, 2 sacks, 2 hurries, 0 ints

Speed WRs were mostly disappointing again
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1495

About the only thing they do well on a regular basis are slant routes.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1495&pbp_id=325734 (not completed, but did leave the CB in the dust)
They do get a couple steps on occasion, but not as much as I think they should and a FS over the top typically takes it away...Should happen to an extent, but not on plays like this where the FS has to run step for step with the speed WRs for nearly 20 yds
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1495&pbp_id=325737

Agility/fake WRs just stink, faking DBs far too infrequently in coverage and less than they should after the catch
Here is an example of WR1 faking to get open...Seems to only happen once or twice a game, though. They pay the penalty for not dumping everything into roll winning, but get very little benefit
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1495&pbp_id=325714

Pass rush pressure is too low...166 pass attempts, 2 sacks, 2 hurries

PDs/KLs/completions into coverage and QB leading all seem about right to me
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1495&pbp_id=325713 This happens far more than completions in these situations, which is good

I know, I know, all old news, but I'm trying to keep you up to date and don't have a better idea on how to get action on these issues besides testing them to showing the results
 
TxSteve
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Originally posted by
"Agility/fake WRs just stink, faking DBs far too infrequently in coverage and less than they should after the catch
Here is an example of WR1 faking to get open...Seems to only happen once or twice a game, though. They pay the penalty for not dumping everything into roll winning, but get very little benefit
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1495&pbp_id=325714"



amen - i've got a 50-ish WR - 17 in head fake; +86% fake attempt - who never gets open

Originally posted by
"166 pass attempts, 2 sacks, 2 hurries, 0 ints"


so sad
Edited by TxSteve on Nov 4, 2009 08:29:07
 
Kevin Smith
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Pass rush is beyond ridiculous. What are we supposed to aim for? Those builds are unattainable on the live sever, and even they are useless. So this tells us that no matter what we do with the builds, speed and agility will not lead to a good pass rusher.
Edited by Kevin Smith on Nov 4, 2009 08:54:54
 
PP
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3rd and (unless something unexpected happens) final test to create a base line for passing & pass rush dynamics
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1496

To get the Jacks QB to hold the ball longer (to see how many more sacks it creates and to allow WRs to finish their routes), I set Jack's QB to never check down and all the way to finishing routes...He wasn't sacked once in 115 attempts, with 4 recorded hurries (short WR passes again on 1st, med on 2nd, long on 3rd). DB's QBs, which I assume are set in the middle on those items, was sacked twice, with 4 hurries in a combined 102 attempts.


Because I only changed Jacks (and because it takes forever to review games with all passing and I've got shit to do), I only reviewed Jacks on O, skipping San Jose

results
No real difference.
Speed WRs same, getting open a few times, but still draped most times on deep balls...Here's a 20 yd pass. CB has 89 speed, 100 agility and 6 in SDC & 1st step...WR 146.5 speed (57.5 advantage) 77.3 agility (22.7 deficit), 14 1st step (8 adv), 7 Run route (1 more than SDC)
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1496&pbp_id=325944

Against "fast" CBs (112.6 speed...still 33.9 slower) with high SDC (10), it's really bad. In 25 yds, both the CB and FS are still all over him, both over the top until the FS breaks for the ball.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1496&pbp_id=325971

Jacks' agility/fake WR didn't fake to get open once in this game

0 sacks against Jacks

 
WiSeIVIaN
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Thx for testing PP.
 
PP
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Summation (will post this same thing on the Testers' Forum...hence the link and such)

I ran 3 tests sims to gauge the passing & pass rushing dynamics
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1494
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1495
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1496

In each case, Jacks' O was set to pass short to WRs on 1st, med to WRs on 2nd, long to WRs on 3rd & 4th and played 4-1-6, cover 2, man under, med, pass, no blitzing on every D (DB was asked to do the same). In the 1st 2 games, Jacks' QB was set to balanced on allowing the routes to complete and dumping off. On the last one, he was set to never dump and all the way to allowing routes to complete. He was set to aggressive/hold the ball on all 3

Raw pass rush #s
in 596 passing attempts, 6 sacks (1% of drop backs), 12 hurries (2%) and 4 ints (0.7%)

Obviously, these pass rush #s are way too low, particularly when you look at the builds of the DEs & DTs playing. The OL is very good, but the DL is OMG good. On the plus side, when the QB did feel pressure, his passes were very realistic IMO.

Recommendation:
give the DL a 10% boost and force the QB to hold the ball 10% longer and retest. That most likely won't be enough, but a good starting point.

QB leading
Frankly, I thought it was very good exactly as it is set now on the test server and would recommend porting it over to the lve server this off ssn.

QB pump faking
close to good, IMO, but I'd up its frequency by about 10%

QB feeling pressure
Great, but they just need to be pressured a bit more

Speed WRs ability to get open
Speed WRs definately need a boost, IMO. Currently, they are just plain blanketed by vastly inferior speed DBs. On the off times they did beat the CBs in my 3 tests, the FS was there every time. Not once in 569 pass attempts (long WR on every 3rd & 4th down) did either of the 4 OMG speed WRs take one deep to the house. The speed dif between those 4 WRs and the CBs ranged from 66.5-33.9, in favor of the WRs. the WRs also either had 10 or 14 in 1st step. They did get open on slants a decent amount, but no where near enough on deep balls, IMO.

Recommendation:
I personally hate nerfs, so, if possible, I'd suggest increasing the effectiveness of speed on the WRs only by 10% (if possible) and retest. If not, my only other suggestons would be to decrease agility's role in acceleration by 10% and nerfing SDC by 10% and retesting, but I'm more than open to suggestions over the nerfng

High agility/fake WRs ability to get open
Admittedly, I may have missed a few, but I only saw the 2 98.47 agility, 63 vision, 21% fake chance, 15 Quick Feet, 11 HF & Juke WR fake to get open 4 times, and don't recall him being targeted on any of those 4 (could be wrong on that). He was the starting WR2 on my team and the WR 3 on DBs. So, he was in a good share of the 569 pass attempts.

Recommendation:
Keeping with the gradual additions and retest approach, I'd give them a 10% boost to fake chance when route running and a 10% after the catch. My guess is that the 10% when route running will still be too low, but the after the catch may be about right.

Possession/roll winner WRs
Perfect as is. If anything, they should lose 5-10% more rolls, but only f the other WR types are improved. Currently, I believe they are the only consistently productive WR builds, when facing equal talent lvls and are what is primarily responsible for making the passing #s look respectable.

Completions into double, trip and quad coverage
I honestly don't know if it is the builds or if the test server sim is different, but the lvl appears to be close to right here. A few balls were completed into trip & quad coverage, but not too many, IMO. That said, the int rate was too low (0.7%). Also, if improvements are made to WRs getting open, it is questionable if increasing pass rush pressure and int rate will be good enough to keep the passing in check. I think it would be, but one may need to improve the PD rates, if not.

Those are my 2 cents on all of this. I'll be extremely busy for the next 2-3 weeks and doubt I'll be able to conduct many if any tests during that time. However, I'd like to add heavy blitzing into the mix and retest, both to see how it impacts pressure and WRs getting open. Regardless, I believe the above observations hold true.

For far more details, including linked play examples, you can check out the following thread on the test results forum: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3441412
 
Firenze
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Lol @ how good those DE's are.
 
TxSteve
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great write up PP -


i'll will keep my fingers crossed that you get a good reception from Bort and the other testers.


if Bort doesn't drop anything to follow up on your suggestions - I hope you'll still stick with it and continue your work
 
PP
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Originally posted by TxSteve
great write up PP -


i'll will keep my fingers crossed that you get a good reception from Bort and the other testers.


if Bort doesn't drop anything to follow up on your suggestions - I hope you'll still stick with it and continue your work


I'm going to try, and thanks. I know most of it is stuff everyone already knows, but I just don't know how else to approach this issue and am trying to make it as transparent to all users as practically possible. Part of the cost of doing that is wasting a lot of text on things most users already believe to be the case...Just can't think of a better approach

 
TxSteve
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well - when you present something as complicated as this is -

and you get responses like "Yes - we already knew that" from the player base instead of "you suck"; "you're an idiot"; "you're wrong"; "why didn't you...."; etc etc..


then you're very obviously on the right track
 
Hikariu
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Maybe we should do a GLB Bugs radio show? That way Bort can listen on archive and get bug mods + GLB users input... 10:00 or 11:00 PM EST would be best for me.
 
bighoppa67
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On the DEs, why didn't you run them with higher strength? Speed isn't a big part of the break block equation, and those DEs are giving up 30 and 40 points in strength. I'd like to see what a 90-100 str, 80 spd, 120 agi DE could do vs. those OTs.
 
Firenze
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Originally posted by bighoppa67
On the DEs, why didn't you run them with higher strength? Speed isn't a big part of the break block equation, and those DEs are giving up 30 and 40 points in strength. I'd like to see what a 90-100 str, 80 spd, 120 agi DE could do vs. those OTs.


I'm sure it'd perform to a similar level (i.e. very badly considering the quality of the build)
 
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