Warrior General Games

A lot of strongly voiced arguments here (I didn't read every single one), but in my opinion AE in general is simply not worth deviating from intense training for a gamble with a lesser regimen to get. What you lose going from intense to normal could possibly outweigh the benefit you get in the end if the shopping experience is as some have seen - endless.

Of course, to each their own.

And in the case of slow building, there's no way I'd ever pass up the BTs being converted to SP at low levels. Even if you're not making caps with the points necessarily, not getting any extra SP possible seems silly to me, because they have to go somewhere, and the sooner they get there the better. What's better, mathematically speaking? Reaching the caps sooner or bolstering an ability once it's maxed? Same effect, maybe similar results, but if I ever want to switch around my equipment that's always an option if I have the cash using normal equipment; it isn't with AE. (Maybe I'm wrong?)

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
A lot of strongly voiced arguments here (I didn't read every single one), but in my opinion AE in general is simply not worth deviating from intense training for a gamble with a lesser regimen to get. What you lose going from intense to normal could possibly outweigh the benefit you get in the end if the shopping experience is as some have seen - endless.

Of course, to each their own.

And in the case of slow building, there's no way I'd ever pass up the BTs being converted to SP at low levels. Even if you're not making caps with the points necessarily, not getting any extra SP possible seems silly to me, because they have to go somewhere, and the sooner they get there the better. What's better, mathematically speaking? Reaching the caps sooner or bolstering an ability once it's maxed? Same effect, maybe similar results, but if I ever want to switch around my equipment that's always an option if I have the cash using normal equipment; it isn't with AE. (Maybe I'm wrong?)

I used to think this exactly. But as my first batch of slow builders is rounding out, I am starting to realize the power of AE.

You can use the extra SP from bonus tokens to reach caps early, but you cant ever get back the lost time need to invest in a piece of AE.

At level 40 you can easily have 3 skills cap'd at 68. The problem is as you continue to level, the gains are so low vs the sp invested, this is when AE starts to be > then your early cap gains.

AE has to be built up over time. As you delay that time, you weaken the potential of the piece(s). Sure you can start up after you have cap'd everyhting you want, but you will never get a piece anywhere near as great as it could of been if you had been saving from day 1.

It's also not as cut and dry as "Never spend BT to reach a cap" or "Roll for equip until you get that perfect Piece". There is a happy medium that good Agents can find for there players.


Take these examples.

You have a DT that you slow build vs save up for AE.

at level 32, your slow built DT can have 81 agl/str (cap'd earlier to get the level gains)
at level 32 your normal built DT can have 78 agl/str (cap'd normally)

At level 40, your slow built DT can have 83 agl, with +6 from each equipment piece. For a max agl of 113.
At level 40 your normal built DT can have 80 agl with +9 from 1, and +6 from every other piece. For a max agl of 113.

You have caught your slow built in agl. However, the AE also has +4 of a SA like First step/TV/CD etc.. You could also use that SA to upgrade existing SA saving yourself sp you would have to spend at the higher levels.

The bonuses to the AE far outweigh the early gains as you level. The more you level, the more you save.

SP are pretty useless at high levels. It's obvious that the AE is much more valuable.

Yeah, but that botches the idea of a balanced player being better at higher levels. What if you want four abilities to 68, instead of 2 to 130? lol
In that case, SP isn't "useless" as some people are saying.

You also didn't address one of my points: What if I want to change my equipment?

I'm not arguing just to argue, I just don't see how extreme specialization is the only viable way to build a player. For some positions it works, and I imagine for some positions it really doesn't.

Always training on intense, even when your attributes are already high, is still better than training on normal; I wouldn't want to deviate from it.

One of the points DW is making, and I kind of see this - suppose you have a great need to do a 30 skill swing in your build. If you have two pieces of AE, you've either got to dump them and find two to replace them. Or leave them sit idle when you're not using them.

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks

I'm not arguing just to argue


I am not arguing, I am having a open discussion with knowldgeable GLB'er where we each can learn from one another.

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks

Always training on intense, even when your attributes are already high, is still better than training on normal; I wouldn't want to deviate from it.

I don't understand why you assume I am training on normal all the time. You train on normal when you first make your guy, to help raise a single attribute to a cap. An AE user has to train on Intense 90% (I am going low here) of the time for BT to invest in gear.

Create on Day 31.

Day 31 gives me 9 days till day 40 to train. 9x2=18
(I am going to assume off season and preseason training is turned on)

Off season gives me 4 days. 4x2=8
Preseason give me 4 days. 4x2=8

That's 34 TP's or 17 normal trains. 17 Sopping tokens banked. In that time I can train one attribute like speed for a hb, agl for a DT, str for a power back, throw for a qb and cap it by level 2 or 3. Once it is cap'd I will be training on Intense until level 30ish when we start to spend thoes tokens.

Yes you have to spend 1 early to bank tokens.
Yes I realize 16 shopping tokens even at level 30 is still a crap roll %.
Yes I realize I MAY have to use Off/Preseasons to spend on training normal for a better shopping result down the road.

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks

You also didn't address one of my points: What if I want to change my equipment?


Can you not sell back your AE and get all your BT back? You would have to shop again, but just like you sell your normal gear for a attribute swing, you can do the same with AE.

Do you change your equipment on all of your Players? 100% of the time of there career? Some things are always givens.. Qb's need throwing, Backs\Receivers need speed.. etc etc
(Yes I realize someone is going to come in here and propose some extreme like they are making a all Catch no speed WR.... but you get my point)

Yes Bort makes changes every season that no one sees coming and that requires changes, but some things we just cant prepare for.

I am not saying you have to do this 100% of the time, and yes it works better for some positions then others, I am just trying to open peoples minds that are looking for other paths to take with there characters.

hello, are you guys even considering the opportunity cost of using AE over Normal

Originally posted by JRice80
SP are pretty useless at high levels. It's obvious that the AE is much more valuable.

no its not
you have to consider opportunity cost.
By using AE you lose the Normal equip that normally would go there. So AE - Normal is < normal + bonus SP

Originally posted by iMan
Originally posted by JRice80

SP are pretty useless at high levels. It's obvious that the AE is much more valuable.

no its not
you have to consider opportunity cost.
By using AE you lose the Normal equip that normally would go there. So AE - Normal is < normal + bonus SP

At low levels maybe, not at high levels.

If your agl is already at 111, base 81, would you rather add a AE base +3 (114) attribute or spend 21 sp? (7+7+7)

Originally posted by iMan
hello, are you guys even considering the opportunity cost of using AE over Normal


The third post on page three lays it out pretty well, IMO.

Originally posted by iMan

no its not
you have to consider opportunity cost.
By using AE you lose the Normal equip that normally would go there. So AE - Normal is < normal + bonus SP

BTW, for a level 40 AE on a level 40 player, this is equivalent to saying:

+4 SA +3 Skill > 48 Bonus Tokens (or 12 SP)


Originally posted by Meatdawg


At low levels maybe, not at high levels.

If your agl is already at 111, base 81, would you rather add a AE base +3 (114) attribute or spend 21 sp? (7+7+7)

Well, it's not really realistic to say the 3 attribute levels from 81->84 are worth 7 SP each. They're worth only what you'd pay for them which likely diminishes as the skill rises. No one's going to pay 20 SP to go from 99 to 100. But also, that doesn't make an EQ that would take the skill from 99 to 100 worth 20 SP either. Not sure if that makes sense. Basically, EQ Attr Points are only worth what you would pay for them, not what they currently cost at that skill's current level.

The trade off is more even when it comes to things you would spend the SP on. Getting an SA from 6 to 10 for instance (lvl 40 AE). Most people are willing to pay the 18 SP that it takes to do that. So a +4 from an AE to an SA is worth about 18 SP. Of course it takes 48 Bonus tokens that could be traded for 12 SP, so that makes it a net gain of 6 SP.

And finally, it's impossible to put a price on an SA that your player can't get - say closing speed for a Linebacker or something.

Originally posted by Meatdawg
Originally posted by iMan

Originally posted by JRice80


SP are pretty useless at high levels. It's obvious that the AE is much more valuable.

no its not
you have to consider opportunity cost.
By using AE you lose the Normal equip that normally would go there. So AE - Normal is < normal + bonus SP

At low levels maybe, not at high levels.

If your agl is already at 111, base 81, would you rather add a AE base +3 (114) attribute or spend 21 sp? (7+7+7)

you guys are missing something. by using taking the BT SP, you will be able to get to softcap faster and be better for a bigger part of your career. holding BT for EQ upgrade will only surpass BT boost once you have it significantly above (ie 3 att points more and like 5 sa) normal EQ

I have been able to use Bonus Tokens to hit caps a level faster, did it twice with my kicker, and a couple other times with other players. IMO it does not happen often enough or consistently enough to even consider it as part of the discussion because the true value of hitting that cap a level earlier is difficult to determine.

that's terrible logic iMan, because you can save your BTs in piggy bank AEQs to upgrade later, more efficient pieces. If you'd rather spend them to get measly SP rather than future major AEQ upgrades, be my guest.

Originally posted by Meatdawg
I don't understand why you assume I am training on normal all the time. You train on normal when you first make your guy, to help raise a single attribute to a cap. An AE user has to train on Intense 90% (I am going low here) of the time for BT to invest in gear. I train on intense always. I wasn't assuming you did normal all the time though, I just figure you have to do it enough to get ideal equipment.

Originally posted by Meatdawg
Can you not sell back your AE and get all your BT back? You would have to shop again, but just like you sell your normal gear for a attribute swing, you can do the same with AE. it's just far more difficult to do, and you have to train again on normal.

Originally posted by Meatdawg
Do you change your equipment on all of your Players? 100% of the time of there career? Some things are always givens.. Qb's need throwing, Backs\Receivers need speed.. etc etc
(Yes I realize someone is going to come in here and propose some extreme like they are making a all Catch no speed WR.... but you get my point) Yeah, but I have a few players at various positions and I might not have the exact, most effective build at all times. Different equipment could be used for stabilizing a weakness instead of strengthening something that's already sufficient.


I just think intense>normal. I also think hitting caps asap>pretty much everything else in this game as long as you're doing it with intense training. :-p