Good. Thanks for the support 
TheInfinity
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I'm firmly against the Bi-Modal Attributes and the Position specific Soft Caps, but totally for the Custom Special Abilities.
Bi-Modal Attributes is not needed. Strength is strength, pushing someone as a D-Lineman takes both upper and lower body strength, as does plowing someone when you are running with the ball or tackling someone. The only way in which strength gets separated in a realistic way is arm strength for a quarterback and leg strength for a kicker and even then, its not like kicking and throwing are the only things a QB and a Kicker/Punter ever have to do. No sense to split it between upper and lower.
Speed has acceleration covered in agility. Want a player that accelerates better? Spend some points in agility or in the skills that give you better acceleration.
Agility between balance and evasion? LaDainian Tomlinson doesn't make awesome cuts to evade defenders without also exhibiting amazing balance. Silly separation.
Need I go on? I'll summarize here with the added point that sliding the scale one way or another will have players magically becoming faster or slower, leg powered or torso powered, and other things at random intervals. Not to mention the way it looks, you would set each slider into the middle anyway, who wants a QB that can rocket a pass but doesn't know where its going? Or one with a hugely accurate arm that throws up super soft passes that get picked off every time? Or a running back that has awesome balance but can't evade a tackler for beans or the running back that makes an awesome cut only to fall on his face?
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Position Specific Soft Caps is a way of limiting builds not expanding possibilities. By saying to a position "hey, your strength caps out at 25 but your speed caps out at 60" you are saying "don't bother with strength." Its going to force people into cookie cutter builds and if they don't follow they'll be comitting SP suicide.
This really, to me, comes out of the crying that Defensive Ends are too powerful, well, I have a defensive end thats powerful but look at his game logs, he gets shut down in some games (holy crap, someone built an OT that can block?!). The fact that he can be stopped means he's not overpowered. Secondly, look at the players in real life, they come in different shapes and sizes and different strength and speed levels. There is no sense in saying a Defensive End is by his very nature slower than a Wide Receiver, some Defensive Ends come close to running 4.4 second 40-yard dashes while some Wide Receivers can't come close to that.
Bort has said he's going to fix up the blocking mechanics and work towards having Offensive Linemen pass block properly. He's also going to make the defensive ends more honest by increasing the role of strength for them. Don't change the entire player building mechanic just so you can nerf a single position.
Bi-Modal Attributes is not needed. Strength is strength, pushing someone as a D-Lineman takes both upper and lower body strength, as does plowing someone when you are running with the ball or tackling someone. The only way in which strength gets separated in a realistic way is arm strength for a quarterback and leg strength for a kicker and even then, its not like kicking and throwing are the only things a QB and a Kicker/Punter ever have to do. No sense to split it between upper and lower.
Speed has acceleration covered in agility. Want a player that accelerates better? Spend some points in agility or in the skills that give you better acceleration.
Agility between balance and evasion? LaDainian Tomlinson doesn't make awesome cuts to evade defenders without also exhibiting amazing balance. Silly separation.
Need I go on? I'll summarize here with the added point that sliding the scale one way or another will have players magically becoming faster or slower, leg powered or torso powered, and other things at random intervals. Not to mention the way it looks, you would set each slider into the middle anyway, who wants a QB that can rocket a pass but doesn't know where its going? Or one with a hugely accurate arm that throws up super soft passes that get picked off every time? Or a running back that has awesome balance but can't evade a tackler for beans or the running back that makes an awesome cut only to fall on his face?
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Position Specific Soft Caps is a way of limiting builds not expanding possibilities. By saying to a position "hey, your strength caps out at 25 but your speed caps out at 60" you are saying "don't bother with strength." Its going to force people into cookie cutter builds and if they don't follow they'll be comitting SP suicide.
This really, to me, comes out of the crying that Defensive Ends are too powerful, well, I have a defensive end thats powerful but look at his game logs, he gets shut down in some games (holy crap, someone built an OT that can block?!). The fact that he can be stopped means he's not overpowered. Secondly, look at the players in real life, they come in different shapes and sizes and different strength and speed levels. There is no sense in saying a Defensive End is by his very nature slower than a Wide Receiver, some Defensive Ends come close to running 4.4 second 40-yard dashes while some Wide Receivers can't come close to that.
Bort has said he's going to fix up the blocking mechanics and work towards having Offensive Linemen pass block properly. He's also going to make the defensive ends more honest by increasing the role of strength for them. Don't change the entire player building mechanic just so you can nerf a single position.
dmfa41
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It's about more than the exhausted DE vs. OT argument, but you know that.
I'd like to see more diverse attributes; I know it's more than STR-INT-WIS-CON-CHA-DEX already, but I'd like to have more proper delineations within. I also don't like having agility tied to acceleration since the two aren't necessarily mutually inclusive The bi-modal idea was one means of taking on those small discrepancies. It might open a few more cans of worms, but the idea is still in its infancy.
I'd like to see more diverse attributes; I know it's more than STR-INT-WIS-CON-CHA-DEX already, but I'd like to have more proper delineations within. I also don't like having agility tied to acceleration since the two aren't necessarily mutually inclusive The bi-modal idea was one means of taking on those small discrepancies. It might open a few more cans of worms, but the idea is still in its infancy.
mattdyersonfire
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Originally posted by NCAACAL
Originally posted by dmfa41
Thanks for the support, fellas.
i am in 7th grade lol. and i have been playing since 5th grade. BEAT THAT
impossible the game has only been out for like 8 months.
Originally posted by dmfa41
Thanks for the support, fellas.
i am in 7th grade lol. and i have been playing since 5th grade. BEAT THAT
impossible the game has only been out for like 8 months.
mattdyersonfire
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great idea but if this is installed in the game i think that we should have 15 seasons to build a player before he is retired because then if there are more skills for a player it will take a lot longer to build a well rounded productive player. if we only have 10 seasons to do all of that stuff then nobody will be great at many things before retirement.
TheInfinity
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Originally posted by dmfa41
It's about more than the exhausted DE vs. OT argument, but you know that.
I'd like to see more diverse attributes; I know it's more than STR-INT-WIS-CON-CHA-DEX already, but I'd like to have more proper delineations within. I also don't like having agility tied to acceleration since the two aren't necessarily mutually inclusive The bi-modal idea was one means of taking on those small discrepancies. It might open a few more cans of worms, but the idea is still in its infancy.
The trouble is in the fact that certain positions are best off with certain builds. Quarterbacks need Throwing and Vision above all else, just like Wide Receivers need catching and Defensive Backs need Speed and Agility. Its the curse of making positions in a game. So you are inevitably going to have some sort of cookie cutter bits to every build. No one wants an insanely slow Wide Receiver or a high Throwing and Kicking Running Back.
With adding more attributes, you don't want to over complicate the system, both for us and for Bort's coding. Right now there is a healthy amount and while you could split some into 2 (making more stats, not bi-modal stuff) its tough to reassess how many skill points you give people to adjust to these new needs. (Seeing as now you need to spend on Speed, Acceleration, Agility instead of Speed, Agility as a Defensive Back for example.
The best solution I could think of was to make a push for Custom Skill Trees. With that people can get creative in the little bits of flavor that their player will have. A First Stepping Quick Cutting One Hand Catching possession guy is possible. As is the Route Running, Quick Cutting, Cut Blocking, Pancaking hardnosed blocking Wide Receiver. This is because it allows people to devote themselves partially to a role (training the needed stat like Blocking) and pumping some points into a Special Ability to make it better. And down the line when the player is fully developed (4-5 seasons in) separates him completely from other guys.
It's about more than the exhausted DE vs. OT argument, but you know that.
I'd like to see more diverse attributes; I know it's more than STR-INT-WIS-CON-CHA-DEX already, but I'd like to have more proper delineations within. I also don't like having agility tied to acceleration since the two aren't necessarily mutually inclusive The bi-modal idea was one means of taking on those small discrepancies. It might open a few more cans of worms, but the idea is still in its infancy.
The trouble is in the fact that certain positions are best off with certain builds. Quarterbacks need Throwing and Vision above all else, just like Wide Receivers need catching and Defensive Backs need Speed and Agility. Its the curse of making positions in a game. So you are inevitably going to have some sort of cookie cutter bits to every build. No one wants an insanely slow Wide Receiver or a high Throwing and Kicking Running Back.
With adding more attributes, you don't want to over complicate the system, both for us and for Bort's coding. Right now there is a healthy amount and while you could split some into 2 (making more stats, not bi-modal stuff) its tough to reassess how many skill points you give people to adjust to these new needs. (Seeing as now you need to spend on Speed, Acceleration, Agility instead of Speed, Agility as a Defensive Back for example.
The best solution I could think of was to make a push for Custom Skill Trees. With that people can get creative in the little bits of flavor that their player will have. A First Stepping Quick Cutting One Hand Catching possession guy is possible. As is the Route Running, Quick Cutting, Cut Blocking, Pancaking hardnosed blocking Wide Receiver. This is because it allows people to devote themselves partially to a role (training the needed stat like Blocking) and pumping some points into a Special Ability to make it better. And down the line when the player is fully developed (4-5 seasons in) separates him completely from other guys.
dmfa41
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Originally posted by TheInfinity
The best solution I could think of was to make a push for Custom Skill Trees. With that people can get creative in the little bits of flavor that their player will have. A First Stepping Quick Cutting One Hand Catching possession guy is possible. As is the Route Running, Quick Cutting, Cut Blocking, Pancaking hardnosed blocking Wide Receiver. This is because it allows people to devote themselves partially to a role (training the needed stat like Blocking) and pumping some points into a Special Ability to make it better. And down the line when the player is fully developed (4-5 seasons in) separates him completely from other guys.
Right on. See the third part of the OP from that, which mostly cites the thread you made several days ago.
One thing in favor of keeping the trees together and subbing one out for another is so that one could still receive a bonus from Custom Equipment, and the SP costs wouldn't be skewed. Individually substituted SAs would have to have some sort of elevated cost. What better means to increase diversity than to likewise augment individual choice?
The best solution I could think of was to make a push for Custom Skill Trees. With that people can get creative in the little bits of flavor that their player will have. A First Stepping Quick Cutting One Hand Catching possession guy is possible. As is the Route Running, Quick Cutting, Cut Blocking, Pancaking hardnosed blocking Wide Receiver. This is because it allows people to devote themselves partially to a role (training the needed stat like Blocking) and pumping some points into a Special Ability to make it better. And down the line when the player is fully developed (4-5 seasons in) separates him completely from other guys.
Right on. See the third part of the OP from that, which mostly cites the thread you made several days ago.
One thing in favor of keeping the trees together and subbing one out for another is so that one could still receive a bonus from Custom Equipment, and the SP costs wouldn't be skewed. Individually substituted SAs would have to have some sort of elevated cost. What better means to increase diversity than to likewise augment individual choice?
saintedix
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Custom Special Abilities: NEED THIS!
Bi-Modal: Eh, no thanks. Maybe Power and Accuracy should be separated though. Jury is still out for me.
Positional Soft Caps: The absolute WORST idea period (Infinity explained why)
Bi-Modal: Eh, no thanks. Maybe Power and Accuracy should be separated though. Jury is still out for me.
Positional Soft Caps: The absolute WORST idea period (Infinity explained why)
dmfa41
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Put this up with the foil so everyone can see what Infinity and I are talking about here.
Montclaire
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Originally posted by saintedix
Custom Special Abilities: NEED THIS!
Bi-Modal: Eh, no thanks. Maybe Power and Accuracy should be separated though. Jury is still out for me.
Positional Soft Caps: The absolute WORST idea period (Infinity explained why)
Originally posted by Nv1sion
Why does everyone feel a need to nerf DEs? That is easily the goal of this suggestion. I don't see the reason to base builds on averages in the NFL. There are plenty of strength based DEs in the league. In fact, there is a minority of pure speed DEs. Just like in the NFL. Wait for the OLine pathing change, see how effective they are, then whine for more nerfs
I started this thread. Your theory was the last thing on my mind. I have an LB and two CBs. I WANT DEs to be monsters so 'I' can reap the benefits.
The fact is that the idea makes perfect sense, IMO, and with some flushing out of ways to make it truly 'perfect', it will benefit the game. To the degree that the nerfs that you think I'm 'whining' for would be unnecessary.
Anyone could still make Freeney or Wilfork, Devin Hester or LenDale White. The difference would be that to do so would result in a truly great player, not simply a caricature of the position.
IMO.
Custom Special Abilities: NEED THIS!
Bi-Modal: Eh, no thanks. Maybe Power and Accuracy should be separated though. Jury is still out for me.
Positional Soft Caps: The absolute WORST idea period (Infinity explained why)
Originally posted by Nv1sion
Why does everyone feel a need to nerf DEs? That is easily the goal of this suggestion. I don't see the reason to base builds on averages in the NFL. There are plenty of strength based DEs in the league. In fact, there is a minority of pure speed DEs. Just like in the NFL. Wait for the OLine pathing change, see how effective they are, then whine for more nerfs
I started this thread. Your theory was the last thing on my mind. I have an LB and two CBs. I WANT DEs to be monsters so 'I' can reap the benefits.
The fact is that the idea makes perfect sense, IMO, and with some flushing out of ways to make it truly 'perfect', it will benefit the game. To the degree that the nerfs that you think I'm 'whining' for would be unnecessary.
Anyone could still make Freeney or Wilfork, Devin Hester or LenDale White. The difference would be that to do so would result in a truly great player, not simply a caricature of the position.
IMO.
PatsFan94
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Custom Special Abilities- Defiantly something i want my idea would be you get 5 ablites total and you get different options for special abilities for each slot (like each slot had 4 different options)
Bimodel- Some but not all i would like to see QBs, kickers, and line and punters strength changed into power and accuracy and pass vs. Run blocking but besides that it'd be over done
Positional soft caps
Positonal soft caps- Could work but i don't see it happening.
Bimodel- Some but not all i would like to see QBs, kickers, and line and punters strength changed into power and accuracy and pass vs. Run blocking but besides that it'd be over done
Positional soft caps
Positonal soft caps- Could work but i don't see it happening.
Last edited Oct 31, 2008 17:19:47
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