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Sonic
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Or Run Block or Get Low.
 
TJ Spikes
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Originally posted by Jeff Williams
So either 21% HB total and get 6 First Step or 24% and zero first step. This is the choice.


24% HB and it's not even close

 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Jeff Williams
Why do you think only 5%? That would not be fully upgraded and would make zero sense. A +2% piece fully upgraded equals +12%. 1/4 of 12% is 3%, not 1.25%. So either 21% HB total and get 6 First Step or 24% and zero first step. This is the choice. He already has AOI and Pummel so there really is not a third option. Just these two and I'm trying to figure out how vital first step is compared to that extra 3%.


I missunderstood your post on how many BT's you had left. What it looked like was you had enough to buy the 5% bonus @ 75 BT's... then have only 18 BT's left over. Sorry... my bad.
 
Jeff Williams
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
I missunderstood your post on how many BT's you had left. What it looked like was you had enough to buy the 5% bonus @ 75 BT's... then have only 18 BT's left over. Sorry... my bad.


So you agree that going from +21% HB to +24% HB is more important for a run blocking arch G than 6 First Step?
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Jeff Williams
So you agree that going from +21% HB to +24% HB is more important for a run blocking arch G than 6 First Step?


Hmmm... 3 % vs a shot at getting out in front to block in time. It really depends on your dot's final numbers of both Speed and Agility (and your OC's play preferences). If both are mid 80's to high 90's, I'd likely go for the HB. If my dot's speed is below 85-80 and agility ain't all that spiffy then I'd go with 1st step. Also it really depends on your OC and what plays he favors. If he loves Pulling Guard plays then 1st step is likely the better buy anyways. Otherwise.... :shrug: In a way that's what you're getting 1st step for anyways... it doesn't help much of anything else but pulling guard plays. In the end I don't want to tell you one thing and have your OC tell you something different. TBH, 3% vs 6 in 1st step is p'much equal overall in effect/value. The only time the 3% will come into effect is whenever your guard faces a virtually equal defender in counter SA's and skill levels. If your dot is better, 3 % won't matter... if your dot is worse it won't make up for the difference. IMO.
 
Jeff Williams
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That is what I was thinking. we run outside a lot with the RBs and QB. My guy seems pretty good with holding his blocks and has way more pancakes than reverse pancakes, and that has been since getting the +HB only up to 18%, as I still haven't gotten the last upgrade to the CEQ yet (will soon). His strength and blocking and SAs are all good but his speed and agility not so much, so I was thinking if First Step has a noticeable impact, that may help more than another 3% block. Here's the pertinent stats for comparisons' sake

166 Strength (+58 EQ, + 5 WW VA)
92 Blocking (+2 GB VA)
70 Vision
90 Agility (+2 Quick VA)
73 Speed

SA
7 2 2 2 2
7 5 5 10 10
6 AOI
6 Pummel
+21% HB
Edited by Jeff Williams on Feb 14, 2019 04:27:08
 
Theo Wizzago
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With only 73 speed and what you posted about the offense then, yeah... I'd say the 1st step would help your TEAM more than more HB would. When I did Special Teams, there was a lot of giant miss-matches that showed me crazy (but very interesting) outcomes. An example would be when a O-lineman blocker went head to head against a smaller dot. Against a DB, size, strength, and blocking would surely give the O-lineman a huge advantage... even IF the DB had plenty of Break Block gear on. However, you could almost flip a coin and get one of two outcomes every single time. Either A, the O-lineman simply flattened the DB through brute force... or B, the O-lineman fell flat on it's face because the DB simply was too fast/agile for him... he missed the block and fell flat. I know it wasn't a rev-cake because it never tallied as a rev-cake... simply a 'fall down'. Against maybe a HH LB, the O-lineman was more evenly matched in combat skills... strength vs strength and the blocks would likely be held longer.

If your guard pulls a LOT then it's likely to be matched up against LB's and DB's... even DE's now and then, instead of DT's and your strength should make up any missing 3% of HB. And lastly, IMO... while cakes and all that stat stuff we drool over is kinda nice... it doesn't address the main goal... blocking long enough for the ball carrier to get by. On ST's, usually with a hyper-fast EHB returner, you didn't have to hold a block very long... just long enough. More important was getting TO the block before your dot became useless because the returner was already past him and on down the field. I would think the same for a pulling Guard... if you cannot engage a block before the ball carrier runs past you then all the HB% in the world would be as useful as tits on a boar hog.
 
thermon
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes
The trick with 1st Step is, that more SA points in it gives it a better chance to fire, and also increases the amount of boost. Most people use 1st as an all-or-nothing. Either Max it, or don't bother.


Don't overlook this

Also don't forget about the arms race between the o-line and d-line. It's not that 3% is a huge amount. It's that it could swing you from a -1.5% to a +1.5%




 
Sonic
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
With only 73 speed and what you posted about the offense then, yeah... I'd say the 1st step would help your TEAM more than more HB would. When I did Special Teams, there was a lot of giant miss-matches that showed me crazy (but very interesting) outcomes. An example would be when a O-lineman blocker went head to head against a smaller dot. Against a DB, size, strength, and blocking would surely give the O-lineman a huge advantage... even IF the DB had plenty of Break Block gear on. However, you could almost flip a coin and get one of two outcomes every single time. Either A, the O-lineman simply flattened the DB through brute force... or B, the O-lineman fell flat on it's face because the DB simply was too fast/agile for him... he missed the block and fell flat. I know it wasn't a rev-cake because it never tallied as a rev-cake... simply a 'fall down'. Against maybe a HH LB, the O-lineman was more evenly matched in combat skills... strength vs strength and the blocks would likely be held longer.

If your guard pulls a LOT then it's likely to be matched up against LB's and DB's... even DE's now and then, instead of DT's and your strength should make up any missing 3% of HB. And lastly, IMO... while cakes and all that stat stuff we drool over is kinda nice... it doesn't address the main goal... blocking long enough for the ball carrier to get by. On ST's, usually with a hyper-fast EHB returner, you didn't have to hold a block very long... just long enough. More important was getting TO the block before your dot became useless because the returner was already past him and on down the field. I would think the same for a pulling Guard... if you cannot engage a block before the ball carrier runs past you then all the HB% in the world would be as useful as tits on a boar hog.


Too slow for a pulling lineman with only 73 speed. His G is more of a wall that can see than one that can move.

Originally posted by Jeff Williams
That is what I was thinking. we run outside a lot with the RBs and QB. My guy seems pretty good with holding his blocks and has way more pancakes than reverse pancakes, and that has been since getting the +HB only up to 18%, as I still haven't gotten the last upgrade to the CEQ yet (will soon). His strength and blocking and SAs are all good but his speed and agility not so much, so I was thinking if First Step has a noticeable impact, that may help more than another 3% block. Here's the pertinent stats for comparisons' sake

166 Strength (+58 EQ, + 5 WW VA)
92 Blocking (+2 GB VA)
70 Vision
90 Agility (+2 Quick VA)
73 Speed

SA
7 2 2 2 2
7 5 5 10 10
6 AOI
6 Pummel
+21% HB


Stick with only stating raw skill levels with equipment as VA's just muddy the numbers and are not really necessary for this conversation. VA's should be talked about with your OC, much like finishing off a build). Doesn't hurt to get the collective thoughts of GLB though, but take care who you take advise from (cough Theo!).

Stamina should have been included in this conversation. Confidence too, and should at least be capped for an O-liner.

Not sure what all the SA's on the top line with 2 invested in it are being invested for, as those 10 SP's could have taken Aura and Pummel nearer to 10 each. Is your team a running or passing team, as 7 invested in Pass Blocking SA looks too much if a running team.
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Sonic
Too slow for a pulling lineman with only 73 speed. His G is more of a wall that can see than one that can move.


I didn't wanna say that but felt that was the case. Personally, with a pulling guard, I would think 80 would be the absolute lowest you would wanna be. (IMO).



Originally posted by Sonic
Stick with only stating raw skill levels with equipment as VA's just muddy the numbers and are not really necessary for this conversation. VA's should be talked about with your OC, much like finishing off a build). Doesn't hurt to get the collective thoughts of GLB though, but take care who you take advise from (cough Theo!).

Stamina should have been included in this conversation. Confidence too, and should at least be capped for an O-liner.

Not sure what all the SA's on the top line with 2 invested in it are being invested for, as those 10 SP's could have taken Aura and Pummel nearer to 10 each. Is your team a running or passing team, as 7 invested in Pass Blocking SA looks too much if a running team.


There's no doubt my take on things ain't par with a lot of those 'old school' guys that are stuck on old ideas. And it's Advice... not advise.
 
Sonic
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Your advise is always help Theo
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Sonic


Your advise is always help Theo


Not if your name was JDBolick. I swear I still worry he quit because he was havin heart issues arguing with me.
 
Jeff Williams
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He doesn't really have far to go though. Just from the G position to a few yards at most outside of the T usually. He's only pulling on his side so its not that far a distance. He sometimes makes it there depending on the angle but other times he can't quite get there in time. So I'm trying to decide, is missing ~2 blocks a game (3% HB on an average of 66 plays a game) that he could make worth getting to more blocks on the outside and potentially opening up big plays when blocking on a LB or DB. So I guess the question is how much faster will it actually make him. If he gets there on 6 or 7 more plays a game its worth it but if its just a fractional impact obviously its not worth it then. I just have no idea what affect First Step has as I've never used it. Thanks for the advise and if maybe anyone has any advise on just how much faster will the G pull with it?
 
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