Warrior General Games

Or Run Block or Get Low.

Originally posted by Jeff Williams
So either 21% HB total and get 6 First Step or 24% and zero first step. This is the choice.

24% HB and it's not even close

Originally posted by Jeff Williams
Why do you think only 5%? That would not be fully upgraded and would make zero sense. A +2% piece fully upgraded equals +12%. 1/4 of 12% is 3%, not 1.25%. So either 21% HB total and get 6 First Step or 24% and zero first step. This is the choice. He already has AOI and Pummel so there really is not a third option. Just these two and I'm trying to figure out how vital first step is compared to that extra 3%.

I missunderstood your post on how many BT's you had left. What it looked like was you had enough to buy the 5% bonus @ 75 BT's... then have only 18 BT's left over. Sorry... my bad.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
I missunderstood your post on how many BT's you had left. What it looked like was you had enough to buy the 5% bonus @ 75 BT's... then have only 18 BT's left over. Sorry... my bad.

So you agree that going from +21% HB to +24% HB is more important for a run blocking arch G than 6 First Step?

Originally posted by Jeff Williams
So you agree that going from +21% HB to +24% HB is more important for a run blocking arch G than 6 First Step?

Hmmm... 3 % vs a shot at getting out in front to block in time. It really depends on your dot's final numbers of both Speed and Agility (and your OC's play preferences). If both are mid 80's to high 90's, I'd likely go for the HB. If my dot's speed is below 85-80 and agility ain't all that spiffy then I'd go with 1st step. Also it really depends on your OC and what plays he favors. If he loves Pulling Guard plays then 1st step is likely the better buy anyways. Otherwise.... :shrug: In a way that's what you're getting 1st step for anyways... it doesn't help much of anything else but pulling guard plays. In the end I don't want to tell you one thing and have your OC tell you something different. TBH, 3% vs 6 in 1st step is p'much equal overall in effect/value. The only time the 3% will come into effect is whenever your guard faces a virtually equal defender in counter SA's and skill levels. If your dot is better, 3 % won't matter... if your dot is worse it won't make up for the difference. IMO.

That is what I was thinking. we run outside a lot with the RBs and QB. My guy seems pretty good with holding his blocks and has way more pancakes than reverse pancakes, and that has been since getting the +HB only up to 18%, as I still haven't gotten the last upgrade to the CEQ yet (will soon). His strength and blocking and SAs are all good but his speed and agility not so much, so I was thinking if First Step has a noticeable impact, that may help more than another 3% block. Here's the pertinent stats for comparisons' sake

166 Strength (+58 EQ, + 5 WW VA)
92 Blocking (+2 GB VA)
70 Vision
90 Agility (+2 Quick VA)
73 Speed

SA
7 2 2 2 2
7 5 5 10 10
6 AOI
6 Pummel
+21% HB

With only 73 speed and what you posted about the offense then, yeah... I'd say the 1st step would help your TEAM more than more HB would. When I did Special Teams, there was a lot of giant miss-matches that showed me crazy (but very interesting) outcomes. An example would be when a O-lineman blocker went head to head against a smaller dot. Against a DB, size, strength, and blocking would surely give the O-lineman a huge advantage... even IF the DB had plenty of Break Block gear on. However, you could almost flip a coin and get one of two outcomes every single time. Either A, the O-lineman simply flattened the DB through brute force... or B, the O-lineman fell flat on it's face because the DB simply was too fast/agile for him... he missed the block and fell flat. I know it wasn't a rev-cake because it never tallied as a rev-cake... simply a 'fall down'. Against maybe a HH LB, the O-lineman was more evenly matched in combat skills... strength vs strength and the blocks would likely be held longer.

If your guard pulls a LOT then it's likely to be matched up against LB's and DB's... even DE's now and then, instead of DT's and your strength should make up any missing 3% of HB. And lastly, IMO... while cakes and all that stat stuff we drool over is kinda nice... it doesn't address the main goal... blocking long enough for the ball carrier to get by. On ST's, usually with a hyper-fast EHB returner, you didn't have to hold a block very long... just long enough. More important was getting TO the block before your dot became useless because the returner was already past him and on down the field. I would think the same for a pulling Guard... if you cannot engage a block before the ball carrier runs past you then all the HB% in the world would be as useful as tits on a boar hog.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
The trick with 1st Step is, that more SA points in it gives it a better chance to fire, and also increases the amount of boost. Most people use 1st as an all-or-nothing. Either Max it, or don't bother.

Don't overlook this

Also don't forget about the arms race between the o-line and d-line. It's not that 3% is a huge amount. It's that it could swing you from a -1.5% to a +1.5%

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
With only 73 speed and what you posted about the offense then, yeah... I'd say the 1st step would help your TEAM more than more HB would. When I did Special Teams, there was a lot of giant miss-matches that showed me crazy (but very interesting) outcomes. An example would be when a O-lineman blocker went head to head against a smaller dot. Against a DB, size, strength, and blocking would surely give the O-lineman a huge advantage... even IF the DB had plenty of Break Block gear on. However, you could almost flip a coin and get one of two outcomes every single time. Either A, the O-lineman simply flattened the DB through brute force... or B, the O-lineman fell flat on it's face because the DB simply was too fast/agile for him... he missed the block and fell flat. I know it wasn't a rev-cake because it never tallied as a rev-cake... simply a 'fall down'. Against maybe a HH LB, the O-lineman was more evenly matched in combat skills... strength vs strength and the blocks would likely be held longer.

If your guard pulls a LOT then it's likely to be matched up against LB's and DB's... even DE's now and then, instead of DT's and your strength should make up any missing 3% of HB. And lastly, IMO... while cakes and all that stat stuff we drool over is kinda nice... it doesn't address the main goal... blocking long enough for the ball carrier to get by. On ST's, usually with a hyper-fast EHB returner, you didn't have to hold a block very long... just long enough. More important was getting TO the block before your dot became useless because the returner was already past him and on down the field. I would think the same for a pulling Guard... if you cannot engage a block before the ball carrier runs past you then all the HB% in the world would be as useful as tits on a boar hog.

Too slow for a pulling lineman with only 73 speed. His G is more of a wall that can see than one that can move.

Originally posted by Jeff Williams
That is what I was thinking. we run outside a lot with the RBs and QB. My guy seems pretty good with holding his blocks and has way more pancakes than reverse pancakes, and that has been since getting the +HB only up to 18%, as I still haven't gotten the last upgrade to the CEQ yet (will soon). His strength and blocking and SAs are all good but his speed and agility not so much, so I was thinking if First Step has a noticeable impact, that may help more than another 3% block. Here's the pertinent stats for comparisons' sake

166 Strength (+58 EQ, + 5 WW VA)
92 Blocking (+2 GB VA)
70 Vision
90 Agility (+2 Quick VA)
73 Speed

SA
7 2 2 2 2
7 5 5 10 10
6 AOI
6 Pummel
+21% HB


Stick with only stating raw skill levels with equipment as VA's just muddy the numbers and are not really necessary for this conversation. VA's should be talked about with your OC, much like finishing off a build). Doesn't hurt to get the collective thoughts of GLB though, but take care who you take advise from (cough Theo!).

Stamina should have been included in this conversation. Confidence too, and should at least be capped for an O-liner.

Not sure what all the SA's on the top line with 2 invested in it are being invested for, as those 10 SP's could have taken Aura and Pummel nearer to 10 each. Is your team a running or passing team, as 7 invested in Pass Blocking SA looks too much if a running team.

Originally posted by Sonic
Too slow for a pulling lineman with only 73 speed. His G is more of a wall that can see than one that can move.

I didn't wanna say that but felt that was the case. Personally, with a pulling guard, I would think 80 would be the absolute lowest you would wanna be. (IMO).



Originally posted by Sonic
Stick with only stating raw skill levels with equipment as VA's just muddy the numbers and are not really necessary for this conversation. VA's should be talked about with your OC, much like finishing off a build). Doesn't hurt to get the collective thoughts of GLB though, but take care who you take advise from (cough Theo!).

Stamina should have been included in this conversation. Confidence too, and should at least be capped for an O-liner.

Not sure what all the SA's on the top line with 2 invested in it are being invested for, as those 10 SP's could have taken Aura and Pummel nearer to 10 each. Is your team a running or passing team, as 7 invested in Pass Blocking SA looks too much if a running team.

There's no doubt my take on things ain't par with a lot of those 'old school' guys that are stuck on old ideas. And it's Advice... not advise.

Your advise is always help Theo

Originally posted by Sonic


Your advise is always help Theo

Not if your name was JDBolick. I swear I still worry he quit because he was havin heart issues arguing with me.

He doesn't really have far to go though. Just from the G position to a few yards at most outside of the T usually. He's only pulling on his side so its not that far a distance. He sometimes makes it there depending on the angle but other times he can't quite get there in time. So I'm trying to decide, is missing ~2 blocks a game (3% HB on an average of 66 plays a game) that he could make worth getting to more blocks on the outside and potentially opening up big plays when blocking on a LB or DB. So I guess the question is how much faster will it actually make him. If he gets there on 6 or 7 more plays a game its worth it but if its just a fractional impact obviously its not worth it then. I just have no idea what affect First Step has as I've never used it. Thanks for the advise and if maybe anyone has any advise on just how much faster will the G pull with it?

If you see your O-lineman making mistakes in selecting a good angle or the right man to block, it's Vision (or the lack thereof). You're asking the right questions IMO. When trying to make decisions on where SP's go (or even BT's) the way to look at it is to say 'What do I gain from this' and 'How much gain vs other directions I can go?'. What the team's concept is matters but those two questions usually help you make the best decisions in the end.

As for making your Guard pull 'faster'... I'm not sure I'm answering this right but it doesn't add to your speed (at least not for any significant duration) as much as it hastens your agility reaction time. Agility is what helps a dot 'react' to a speed result. If your dot slows on a turn or a stop then how fast it regains speed is based on Agility as much as anything. A dot with 100 (natural) speed and 20 agility can run like the wind but if it turns at all or is forced to stop it either loses a LOT of speed and/or is slow to regain that lost speed again. A dot with 20 speed and 100 agility would be the opposite. It would reach max speed quickly and likely never lose that speed when making any turn.... but it sure would be slow about it. First Step, I believe, combines the qualities of Vision and Agility into a SA, allowing a dot to bypass those things (if it's own numbers are low in those areas) and get the benefit of instant reaction to the start of a play, or starting from a severely slowed/stopped condition. So, from the start of the play, a dot with 1st Step would seem to jump out of his position faster than any dot around him without that SA and get up to it's top speed, in whatever direction he was going, faster that those other dots without it. But he wouldn't BE faster than he is (no gain in speed). This is what would allow the dot to get to his block assignment faster. I see it used a lot in Blocking FB's to give them an advantage over the Back they are blocking for because they're generally a much slower speed than the ball carrier is. I've pondered it myself for RQB's since it just might get them to the edge a bit quicker on those outside rushing plays.

I think I figured out a weird solution that might get him a good HB% and he can still acquire First Step while keeping Pummel and AOI. This sounds backwards, but if use that AEQ w/ +3 strength and add the 2% HB, then do every upgrade on it except for the last one, along with the +15%HB AEQ and the CEQ it will make a total of 23.75% HB, and he will have enough BT left to buy First Step as a second additional SA. So it would cost him only .25% HB which seems insignificant, and 1 point in Strength from not doing the last AEQ upgrade, but with the AEQ, CEQ combined and WW VA, that strength will still be ~162. So maybe that makes sense. If First Step is not worth 1 point in strength and .25% of block, it doesn't seem like its worth much of anything. Does that seem like a beneficial trade?

Now I am having issue with my pass blocking arch G as well, oh no! He has enough SP and BT to get an additional SA. Pummel or AOI? Our team's starting RG and C have AOI (and Pummel), so should he go with Pummel? Or is 3 players with AOI on the offensive line a good amount?