Warrior General Games

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4410897

Triple stacked %pass quality is a must if you want your QB to play in WL.

Originally posted by mangoolio

I didn't dig deeper into this.


Go to the Bort Stalker thread linked in the post above and look at the question in the passing the ball quotation section where Bort answers a question "Yep, perfectly accurate". Then read the next quotation where he says "you always have your pass quality based on all your stats". That should be a good start.

Originally posted by reddogrw
sorry - but 3 PQ% pieces in one form or another is needed for any QB that passes regardless of archetype

Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4410897

Triple stacked %pass quality is a must if you want your QB to play in WL.

Just mindless herd mentality tbh. The third PQ% piece adds less than a 4% bonus to pass quality. So if you find some way to modify a typical build that was worth the equivalent of a 4% bonus to pass quality or especially if it's more like an 8% or 10% equivalent of a pass quality bonus then that would definitely be better.

I'm tired to people pointing to Catch's study. He didn't run enough tests to make it a definitive study.

Originally posted by Sly
Just mindless herd mentality tbh. The third PQ% piece adds less than a 4% bonus to pass quality. So if you find some way to modify a typical build that was worth the equivalent of a 4% bonus to pass quality or especially if it's more like an 8% or 10% equivalent of a pass quality bonus then that would definitely be better.

Please give me an example of what I could do to improve the passing QB I linked above, by more than 3% pass quality bonus that he is getting from his CE bonus. I'm actually curious to hear this.

EDIT: OR, feel free to show me what I could do if one of his AEQs was replaced, or dropped down to a 3 AEQ build.

Originally posted by Sly
A WiseIvan siting! Everyone should take heed - he's generally on a higher level than the typical GLBer when talking about builds.

You said it...

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=5256488&page=1#49362711

Originally posted by Sly
Originally posted by reddogrw

sorry - but 3 PQ% pieces in one form or another is needed for any QB that passes regardless of archetype

Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4410897

Triple stacked %pass quality is a must if you want your QB to play in WL.

Just mindless herd mentality tbh. The third PQ% piece adds less than a 4% bonus to pass quality. So if you find some way to modify a typical build that was worth the equivalent of a 4% bonus to pass quality or especially if it's more like an 8% or 10% equivalent of a pass quality bonus then that would definitely be better.

given my 3 AE build has a higher EL than your 2 EL build I would say your build is lacking a lot

try succeeding an Nation Pro - you seem to do OK in regional pro with level 79's - quit playing in the kiddie pool and maybe you will see what your builds do in real leagues

Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
Please give me an example of what I could do to improve the passing QB I linked above, by more than 3% pass quality bonus that he is getting from his CE bonus. I'm actually curious to hear this.

EDIT: OR, feel free to show me what I could do if one of his AEQs was replaced, or dropped down to a 3 AEQ build.

I have some working theories that I am still evolving. What I am thinking is that there are alternate build approaches that give more value than that extra AEQ. It is looking that way. And not only for QB but for some other positions as well with similar herd mentality builds. It starts by understanding what is really true and what is just perception / group think. Basically, eliminate the things that seem to be just group think and consider if there might be better alternatives. But I'm always reevaluating. Even with my current builds that recently hit lvl79 I have some things that look like real breakthroughs and other things that were an interesting idea but I wouldn't do them the same way next time.

But while there are some things I'm happy to talk about - for instance fundamentals and commonly held beliefs and whether these beliefs are really true and provable or not - there are other things I'm not so ready to share, and giving you a build guide isn't on my list of things I'm planning to share. You have a really good build already. There are a few things I would do a little differently, though.

Originally posted by reddogrw
given my 3 AE build has a higher EL than your 2 EL build I would say your build is lacking a lot

Many of my dots have a really high EL but that's not my goal. I really don't care what their final EL is and some of my dots purposefully have things in their build that don't contribute much or even sometimes anything to their EL. I think if you have no other information (i.e. closed builds) EL can provide some insight, but I to make conclusions like the one above just seems ignorant. Obviously you're very hostile and defensive. It's not my fault that you use a build-by-numbers approach based on a build guide that someone else wrote and you can't accept challenges to that because you have no ability to figure out how to improve on that guide if it turns out that someone can prove it's not the best approach.

Nowhere does Bort say "the formula for pass quality is...." so everything is guess work and interpretation mixed with personal experience.

Personally, I think it seems logical that self-confidence should be factored into every roll in the sim.

At the same time, it doesn't seem logical that the PP archetype would be so dominant.


I suspect that Bort gives out half truths, because telling the full truth would be too time consuming, complicated and also ruin the game. When he says, for example,
"Mostly vision for the lead distance calculation (do I throw it perfect, or not lead enough), but you always have your pass quality based all your stats, no matter how well the ball is led. You can have bad throws, due to crap throwing or confidence, etc. "
all your stats clearly doesn't mean all your stats... like every player has punting but that's not going to be in the throwing equation. He also doesn't specifically include defensive pressure or hurries in that statement, which is why he ended with etc.

"PQ is mainly based on vision and throwing ability, though things like confidence and SA's go into it too. It is affected downward by the pass distance compared to the QB's max pass distance, if the QB fails a check against it. So if a QB can only throw 30 yards, and the pass is 30 yards, pass quality is very likely going to be lessened, and a wobbly pass results."

When I read this, I read it like
#1 there is an object called Pass Quality that is based on Vision and Throwing
#2 there are other modifiers such as confidence and SAs and pass distance, and we could assume pressure and most likely also RNG that modify the base PQ

So I believe that the base PQ isn't affected by confidence, however there are often situations that come up, where Confidence does modify PQ

For example, Imagine a defense with a 0 man rush. D-line drops into shallow zones. The LBs and DBs all drop into deep zones like in a prevent style defense. This would leave the middle of the field open. If the QB attempts a throw to a wide open WR crossing in the middle, with no pressure coming at him, then Confidence wouldn't modify the roll.

However, the odds of such a scenario actually happening are slim to none. So in effect, Confidence always modifies the PQ to some extent, because there's always negative factors that it offsets.

Originally posted by mangoolio

I don't dig deeper into this. This is plain oh-so-wrong to me. Deliberately false information?


Well, despite what seems to be a disagreement between Sly and me I think it's more a personal take on semantics. While Bort lists Vision as the second skill what he DOESN'T say is just HOW important that second skill is... hence the debate on it's overall importance. Also, it's not something I think Bort and company are ever gonna explain in any detail leaving us to 'guess it out'. I still maintain the gist of what's been posted so far is that Confidence helps if it is considered a part of the original dot build strategy. Meaning, if you believe your QB (deep passer OR pocket style) is going to suffer around 10% or less 'hurries' in his career (and this is simply a guesstimate on my part) then you might not NEED a high Confidence. But if you think that's going to be a bigger issue (for whatever reasons), then Confidence will help against the % of Bad Passes made in those circumstances. Whatever else a high Confidence might impart to a QB we could debate for days... but I firmly believe that what I just said to be truth enough based on not only my own experiences but also the better builders around me... including Sly. Nowhere do I claim to have built the greatest QB's ever... but the one's I have have done a quality job enough to lead us (the teams I played for) to enough bling to make it worth while. I've SEEN better QB builds than mine so I know they're out there. Take that with a grain of salt and I think you'll have enough to build a quality QB.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Well, despite what seems to be a disagreement between Sly and me I think it's more a personal take on semantics.

Yep. Just my opinion - would be pretty boring if everyone agreed on everything, right?

Originally posted by thermon

I suspect that Bort gives out half truths, because telling the full truth would be too time consuming, complicated and also ruin the game.

Looking at everything he said he was very transparent about information he shared. If he didn't want to give some information because he thought it would ruin the game he stated that he was limiting his comments so as not to reveal information like that. Let's start by believing that what is stated is stated as accurately as reasonably possible unless there is evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by thermon

When he says, for example,
"Mostly vision for the lead distance calculation (do I throw it perfect, or not lead enough), but you always have your pass quality based all your stats, no matter how well the ball is led. You can have bad throws, due to crap throwing or confidence, etc. "
all your stats clearly doesn't mean all your stats... like every player has punting but that's not going to be in the throwing equation. He also doesn't specifically include defensive pressure or hurries in that statement, which is why he ended with etc.

But he didn't actually end with "etc." He has another sentence where he continues his thoughts and in that second sentence he specifically mentions throwing and confidence, so we can at least include these two in what impacts pass quality.

Originally posted by thermon


"PQ is mainly based on vision and throwing ability, though things like confidence and SA's go into it too. It is affected downward by the pass distance compared to the QB's max pass distance, if the QB fails a check against it. So if a QB can only throw 30 yards, and the pass is 30 yards, pass quality is very likely going to be lessened, and a wobbly pass results."

When I read this, I read it like
#1 there is an object called Pass Quality that is based on Vision and Throwing
#2 there are other modifiers such as confidence and SAs and pass distance, and we could assume pressure and most likely also RNG that modify the base PQ


But the way you've broken it out doesn't follow the sentence structure that Sort used. His sentence structure is:
Sentence #1 there is an object called Pass Quality that is based mostly on Vision and Throwing AND more minor factors are confidence and SAs
Sentence #2 plus, there are other modifiers such as pass distance (and we could assume pressure and most likely also RNG that modify the base PQ)

I will note that there is another important quotation you didn't list where he was in a discussion clarifying how passes work in greater depth and what he explained was put back to him:

Originally posted by Bort Stalker thread

Question:So I think what you are saying is: the QB's vision determines how precisely his target for the "lead" is, how correctly he establishes the target. But as to how accurately he hits that target, this is a function of throwing skill, confidence, morale, strength, etc., etc.

Is that accurate?

Bort
Yes, perfectly accurate


Over and over again Bort says confidence impacts pass quality, in all passes. He lists it as a more minor impact on pass quality than throwing. It's you who are insisting on rearranging Bort's sentence structure to fit your interpretation, but the language as stated is clear.

A few conclusion I'm making from this:

Speedster WRs who are built to get open enough to catch uncontested balls are a liability to a team that drastically add to the demand for otherwise much less important attributes on the QB.

Enabling the ability to throw deep passes "well" is going to drastically decrease ones quality of passes on short/medium throws, almost to the point of it not really being logical to attempt to do this.

Vision is overrated for Pocket-Passer QBs who target Possession WRs. (I've employed this concept in peewee before with decent success, basically eliminating the "Vision" check for finding an open receiver by selecting progressions via scouting that would leave the QB always targeting someone who is at the minimum single covered, allowing the "gamble" of the receiver having been well covered to decide the outcome rather than the "gamble" of the QB throwing the ball poorly even though he threw it at the right time)

Strength to me is over-rated by some, quite a bit, and logically could be treated as confidence is currently treated.

Confidence on your QB should be directly correlated to the following: The quality of pass blocking by OL, and the likelihood of leaving a TE/HB/FB in to block on passing plays. If you anticipate planning to give your QB time to make a throw then confidence would be drastically less useful than if you send everyone out on routes every play.

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver
A few conclusion I'm making from this:

Speedster WRs who are built to get open enough to catch uncontested balls are a liability to a team that drastically add to the demand for otherwise much less important attributes on the QB.

Enabling the ability to throw deep passes "well" is going to drastically decrease ones quality of passes on short/medium throws, almost to the point of it not really being logical to attempt to do this.

Vision is overrated for Pocket-Passer QBs who target Possession WRs. (I've employed this concept in peewee before with decent success, basically eliminating the "Vision" check for finding an open receiver by selecting progressions via scouting that would leave the QB always targeting someone who is at the minimum single covered, allowing the "gamble" of the receiver having been well covered to decide the outcome rather than the "gamble" of the QB throwing the ball poorly even though he threw it at the right time)

Strength to me is over-rated by some, quite a bit, and logically could be treated as confidence is currently treated.

Confidence on your QB should be directly correlated to the following: The quality of pass blocking by OL, and the likelihood of leaving a TE/HB/FB in to block on passing plays. If you anticipate planning to give your QB time to make a throw then confidence would be drastically less useful than if you send everyone out on routes every play.



peewee isn't even the same game played at higher levels - Bort buffs passing at lower levels