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mangoolio
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What You consider being enough confidence on QB?
More relevant to pocket passer than deep passer?
 
TJ Spikes
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Originally posted by mangoolio
What You consider being enough confidence on QB?
More relevant to pocket passer than deep passer?


Catch did a study a couple years ago, that showed confidence was worthless

the changes were made and there hasn't been any conclusive evidence as to whether the changes did any anything

on a PP it's very easy to run it up with minimal investment. It's not necessarily better for one or the other.

basically depends on how much faith you have in the Bort/Catch combo that an issue was actually completed.

the other side of the coin is that AoI is now pretty much standard issue with high end D-lines, trying to keep pace with the morale spiral toilet drain.

this probably sounds like a dumb answer but IMO...

get as much Confidence as you can without damaging the rest of the build. Depending on your process, and archetype, that could be anywhere from 50 to 70

On a PP, an early 1-cap goes a long way

 
mangoolio
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Catch did a study a couple years ago, that showed confidence was worthless


I remember reading about this, but it was back in the days... Wondering if anything changed since?
But that was only about hurry / bad throws if I'm not mistaken.
Conf should help in other ways too, something like pass quality, tight needle-shot throws etc?


Originally posted by

basically depends on how much faith you have in the Bort/Catch combo that an issue was actually completed.


None...

Just wondering if 70+ is wayyy over what is helpful. Could get strength ~90 with that, is it more helpful to add str then?
 
RiverRat2
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I generally go first cap and then let auto level take it up a bit so 50+ seems fine.
There are so many other things to use the points on.

 
RumpShaker
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I'm just finishing up a QB build in which I got my guy up to 80.... Really not sure one way or the other. Think it's just too tough to tell sometimes in this game. My guy is doing ok overall, but it's against bad teams so...
 
Sly
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I've observed that confidence can reduce the number of bad plays a QB makes and also can positively impact the quality of the QB's passing, but only if abilities in other important areas are also at an adequate level to support the level of confidence that your QB has. To the extent that confidence becomes very high while other abilities are too low to allow the player to benefit from the higher confidence then the excess confidence is wasted. To use an extreme example, if you had a QB with 8 in every ability but 100 confidence he's still going to be terrible, but adequate confidence along with other abilities like adequate throwing, vision, mobility, stamina, etc. will dramatically improve a QB's performance.

A) reducing bad plays
One of the types of bad plays that QBs make is a bad throw; there are other impacts from confidence but this is one. I've noticed there is a very high correlation between the number of times a QB feels hurried and the number of bad throws a QB makes. Of course, occasionally the QB will feel hurried and still make a good throw and occasionally the QB will not feel hurried and still make a bad throw, but most bad throws tend to happen when the QB feels hurried. So if you can reduce the number of times a QB feels hurried then you will reduce the number of bad throws and thus reduce the bad plays a QB makes. I have observed that increasing confidence helps reduce bad throws if other abilities are at an adequate level to allow the QB to benefit from this higher level of confidence.

B) quality of the QB's passing
My observation has been that a QB with adequate abilities in other areas who then improves confidence will see much better results including passer rating, distance per pass, etc. How and why this happens exactly is hard to say, but my observation is it happens. If people doubt it I think a very easy way to test it is to build a QB as I recently did and get his other passing traits up to near their end build before starting confidence, and then just observe the impact of improving confidence.

But to be clear if confidence wasn't your last ability and instead it was any other important ability like strength or vision or mobility you would probably see a similar dramatic improvement once you built out the last abilit(ies). It's the combination and interplay of all the important abilities that helps a QB to play better.
 
rjssob
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LOL Sly...
 
Sly
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puppet! How ya been?
 
rjssob
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Originally posted by Sly
puppet! How ya been?


LOL...I knew you missed me!
 
Theo Wizzago
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Sly is pretty close. I'd break it down a bit further and say this; Where I've seen Confidence (or lack thereof) make an impact is when the QB is 'hurried' or 'pressured'. In those instances the number of 'bad passes' thrown DOES differ between a QB with low Confidence (say below 41) and high confidence (say above 70+). I'd add that if you think 50 confidence is much better than 40 then you'll end up disappointed because you simply won't see enough difference between those 2 QB's. But compare a 40 to a 75 and you will notice the difference. I think this is why many people discredit confidence (that and, for many dots, it does seem a waste of SP's and/or training to take it higher than 40... like, say, a TE or a LB)... they've built dots with 40 confidence then one just like it with 55 confidence and they just don't see a big enough difference so they say 'worthless'. If you build your QB well enough then it's likely he can get by with 40 confidence as he won't get 'hurried' enough to warrant the investment (into confidence). But if you think it WILL make a difference then don't go after it half-assed... take it to 70+ at least otherwise you'll feel like it was a bad investment. I've built mostly Pocket style QB's and always take confidence to 70+. The few times I did not (twice), those QB's threw about 15 extra INTS over their whole career. Since I tend to build them p'much the same then my only conclusion was that (a lack of) confidence cause that many extra bad passes.
 
TJ Spikes
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this seems to be getting a little technical now, so here's my take on it

All defenders set to blitz have a pressure radius, and will project "pressure" on the QB, when the QB is in that radius.

This is why 30 Speed as a bare minimum is important for QBs. Speed controls the drop back. If the QB cannot drop back fast enough, he'll never escape the pressure radius.

The effect of pressure is specifically to decrease pass quality.

The closer defenders get, the more pressure they apply, and the more pass quality goes down.

What confidence does is reduce the pass quality hit applied by pressure.

If the pressure effect is bad enough, and the confidence effect is not high enough the result will be a bad pass.

So, in theory, if you had a QB with 50 Speed, with an amazing o-line, and he only threw short routes, then he wouldn't need very much confidence at all because defenders wouldn't get a chance to apply as much pressure.

A play like this (from the All-time Top Plays) http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2193701&pbp_id=5488262
requires high confidence (also Pocket Presence SA). The DT was right on top of the QB, and the LE and RE were closing in.

 
Sly
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes

So, in theory, if you had a QB with 50 Speed, with an amazing o-line, and he only threw short routes, then he wouldn't need very much confidence at all because defenders wouldn't get a chance to apply as much pressure.


In general I think you did a nice job of describing pressure impacts but what you failed to note especially in the comment above is that confidence is one of the factors that determines pass quality on all passes. If you go to the Bort stalker thread I think you will find that Bort said this on a couple of occasions at least. I can confirm my own observations have very recently confirmed it to be true. This was a point I was making in my original post above that both you and Theo seemed to have missed or perhaps were not aware of.
 
WiSeIVIaN
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IMHO: Throwing > Vision > Confidence > Strength. I've found anecdotally that high confidence QB's throw less picks than high strength QB's.
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Sly
In general I think you did a nice job of describing pressure impacts but what you failed to note especially in the comment above is that confidence is one of the factors that determines pass quality on all passes. If you go to the Bort stalker thread I think you will find that Bort said this on a couple of occasions at least. I can confirm my own observations have very recently confirmed it to be true. This was a point I was making in my original post above that both you and Theo seemed to have missed or perhaps were not aware of.


Well, thing is that no matter what the interaction/action that happens on the field (passing, rushing, blocking, breaking a tackle, everything...) it's always a matter of several factors combining to create an outcome. When passing, there's a LOT of stuff that can effect a passes accuracy. Confidence is just one piece and, as long as there are no other factors, a small one. (Example; Clean drop back, clean pocket, time to throw, successful vision check, ect, ect... then confidence has very little impact on the quality of the throw.) It's when there are external factors (such as a hurry or a throw while scrambling, ect, ect...) that confidence has a much bigger impact on the pass quality. I've read the stalker reports and also have been able to lean on my own personal experience (I would call it limited overall as there are those out there that have built a LOT more QB's than I have)... and the experience of good builders around me... and I won't pretend that I know EXACTLY what the best approach on confidence... just what I've seen and what those around me have seen and believe. TJ's take is short and sweet but, IMO, mostly correct in that if your QB can avoid pressures then confidence becomes much less important. All I'm saying is that it's something you need to take into account when you start the build and stick to the plan. If you're not going to push confidence, then make sure his other 'pass quality enhancing' skills are pushed higher than you would if you DID go with confidence as a part of the build. Also I'd take 3 Pass Quality AEQ pieces if I went the low confidence route. Then you might be able to overcome most of the negatives that might occur when a hurry or pressure happens to effect the pass.
 
reddogrw
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Originally posted by Sly

In general I think you did a nice job of describing pressure impacts but what you failed to note especially in the comment above is that confidence is one of the factors that determines pass quality on all passes. If you go to the Bort stalker thread I think you will find that Bort said this on a couple of occasions at least. I can confirm my own observations have very recently confirmed it to be true. This was a point I was making in my original post above that both you and Theo seemed to have missed or perhaps were not aware of.


Well, thing is that no matter what the interaction/action that happens on the field (passing, rushing, blocking, breaking a tackle, everything...) it's always a matter of several factors combining to create an outcome. When passing, there's a LOT of stuff that can effect a passes accuracy. Confidence is just one piece and, as long as there are no other factors, a small one. (Example; Clean drop back, clean pocket, time to throw, successful vision check, ect, ect... then confidence has very little impact on the quality of the throw.) It's when there are external factors (such as a hurry or a throw while scrambling, ect, ect...) that confidence has a much bigger impact on the pass quality. I've read the stalker reports and also have been able to lean on my own personal experience (I would call it limited overall as there are those out there that have built a LOT more QB's than I have)... and the experience of good builders around me... and I won't pretend that I know EXACTLY what the best approach on confidence... just what I've seen and what those around me have seen and believe. TJ's take is short and sweet but, IMO, mostly correct in that if your QB can avoid pressures then confidence becomes much less important. All I'm saying is that it's something you need to take into account when you start the build and stick to the plan. If you're not going to push confidence, then make sure his other 'pass quality enhancing' skills are pushed higher than you would if you DID go with confidence as a part of the build. Also I'd take 3 Pass Quality AEQ pieces if I went the low confidence route. Then you might be able to overcome most of the negatives that might occur when a hurry or pressure happens to effect the pass.


this is a requirement for a passing QB - 3 AE or 2 AE + CE
 
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