Warrior General Games

Originally posted by fuzzypoopy
Are you wises multi? Because in the OP wise said he would answer questions. But then you answered a question..

Forgive me.

What's the best a dot can be at balling

Originally posted by Bane
What's the best a dot can be at balling

94% due to the sim imo.

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
Share with us your general thoughts on the "Route Run" SA. I've heard some denigrate its "addition" to be negligible in a true speed receiver build, but have also heard others chime in that no speed build should ignore an SA that adds to a dot's speed.

To be clear, this is two questions...

1. What do I think of the route run SA?

The SA is good for what it is. It is a flat bonus to speed and agility when running routes. On builds where you are pumping speed to the 8th+ cap with SP's there's no doubt in my mind that 0 route run isn't optimal, since 1 point in the SA will certainly be worth at least 0.5 speed plus 0.5 agility. 1 SP for 0.5 speed plus 0.5 agility is a super easy slam dunk as far as build effectiveness. On the possession arch you get a "favored" SA which is probably somewhere between 30%-40% bonus in the end value (after deminishing returns is calculated, which is an important factor. I always assumed the SA Favor/Bonus to be around 20%, but catch22 once fired said they were 40%, which GLB replied was wrong. I think 30-40% is a fair guesstimation on the bonus/penalty.

So if you add in the slot machine VA (+45% to route run and quick cut) on top of being favored, I think you end up with a very clear understanding that it is almost certainly worth pumping to 11 as a poss arch playing the slot if you have any speed/agility on him at all. Other roles will be less of a slam dunk, but I do definitely see value in the SA itself. We live in a game of min/maxing, but this narrow line of thinking often leads to prettier builds that leave effectiveness on the table for no logical reason.




2. What do I think of the route run SA on a true speed receiver build?

It's a bit hazy. If Penalty SA's are -40%, and hypothetically route run does give 0.5 spd/agi per level, that means 10 route run gives 5 speed and 5 agility before penalty for 30SP, which makes it seem like very nice value when you are pumping speed and agility each to 7+ cap, and you're effectively getting 10 total spd-agi for 30 SP. Add in a 40% penalty and it's 3 spd and 3 agi for 30 SP. Still not horrible, but not near the slam dunk you're looking at without the penalty.

HOWEVER one thing to keep in mind about SA's. There are two basic types of SA's...
(a) Work every play. Here each level of the SA just increases effectiveness for every play.
(b) Fire to work sometimes. Here each level of the SA increases effectiveness AND chance to fire.

Category (b) is something like powerthru or juke, since you are getting BOTH a boost to effectiveness AND chance to fire, you REALLY want to be hitting 10-11 in the SA if you plan to pump it.

However route run is definitely category (a). This means (in my 0.5 spd/agi example) every single point whether it's the 1st point for 1 SP, or the 10th point for 5 SP, gives the same 0.5 spd/agi. Suddently you have a scenario where you can get 4 points in the SA (ie 0.5x4 = 2 spd/agi for only 6 SP (1+1+2+2). Even if you factor in a 40% penalty you are getting 1.2 each spd/agi (2.4 total combined) for 6 SP, which is a clear mega slam dunk as far as build value.

So with the 40% penalty in my above example pumping to 10 route run you are getting 6 combined total spd/agi for 30 SP (5 SP spent per attribute point), however if only pumping to 4 route run you get 2.4 combined total spd/agi for 6 SP (2.5 SP spent per attribute point).

====================

The point of the above isn't for me to pretend I know route run's bonus, nor to pretend I know borts favored/penalty SA value. Rather the point is that this is no mathematical way on earth that flat value (no chance to fire) SA's like run block, pass block, route run, shed block, shut down corner, are OPTIMAL at 0, since the first 2-4 points in the SA are so incredibly cheap for some constant value.

It's up to you where you theory-math it and want top stop. Penalty SA route run to 10 is unlikely to be some awful decision, but you can realistically argue it won't be a great decision either. If you argue 0 route run is optimal when you are pumping speed to 86 base with SP's however, you are not being very intelligent.

====

Unrelated, but for certain positions I'd consider quick cut (aka change direction on defenders) to be one of the best SA's in the game.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
To be clear, this is two questions...

1. What do I think of the route run SA?

The SA is good for what it is. It is a flat bonus to speed and agility when running routes. On builds where you are pumping speed to the 8th+ cap with SP's there's no doubt in my mind that 0 route run isn't optimal, since 1 point in the SA will certainly be worth at least 0.5 speed plus 0.5 agility. 1 SP for 0.5 speed plus 0.5 agility is a super easy slam dunk as far as build effectiveness. On the possession arch you get a "favored" SA which is probably somewhere between 30%-40% bonus in the end value (after deminishing returns is calculated, which is an important factor. I always assumed the SA Favor/Bonus to be around 20%, but catch22 once fired said they were 40%, which GLB replied was wrong. I think 30-40% is a fair guesstimation on the bonus/penalty.

So if you add in the slot machine VA (+45% to route run and quick cut) on top of being favored, I think you end up with a very clear understanding that it is almost certainly worth pumping to 11 as a poss arch playing the slot if you have any speed/agility on him at all. Other roles will be less of a slam dunk, but I do definitely see value in the SA itself. We live in a game of min/maxing, but this narrow line of thinking often leads to prettier builds that leave effectiveness on the table for no logical reason.




2. What do I think of the route run SA on a true speed receiver build?

It's a bit hazy. If Penalty SA's are -40%, and hypothetically route run does give 0.5 spd/agi per level, that means 10 route run gives 5 speed and 5 agility before penalty for 30SP, which makes it seem like very nice value when you are pumping speed and agility each to 7+ cap, and you're effectively getting 10 total spd-agi for 30 SP. Add in a 40% penalty and it's 3 spd and 3 agi for 30 SP. Still not horrible, but not near the slam dunk you're looking at without the penalty.

HOWEVER one thing to keep in mind about SA's. There are two basic types of SA's...
(a) Work every play. Here each level of the SA just increases effectiveness for every play.
(b) Fire to work sometimes. Here each level of the SA increases effectiveness AND chance to fire.

Category (b) is something like powerthru or juke, since you are getting BOTH a boost to effectiveness AND chance to fire, you REALLY want to be hitting 10-11 in the SA if you plan to pump it.

However route run is definitely category (a). This means (in my 0.5 spd/agi example) every single point whether it's the 1st point for 1 SP, or the 10th point for 5 SP, gives the same 0.5 spd/agi. Suddently you have a scenario where you can get 4 points in the SA (ie 0.5x4 = 2 spd/agi for only 6 SP (1+1+2+2). Even if you factor in a 40% penalty you are getting 1.2 each spd/agi (2.4 total combined) for 6 SP, which is a clear mega slam dunk as far as build value.

So with the 40% penalty in my above example pumping to 10 route run you are getting 6 combined total spd/agi for 30 SP (5 SP spent per attribute point), however if only pumping to 4 route run you get 2.4 combined total spd/agi for 6 SP (2.5 SP spent per attribute point).

====================

The point of the above isn't for me to pretend I know route run's bonus, nor to pretend I know borts favored/penalty SA value. Rather the point is that this is no mathematical way on earth that flat value (no chance to fire) SA's like run block, pass block, route run, shed block, shut down corner, are OPTIMAL at 0, since the first 2-4 points in the SA are so incredibly cheap for some constant value.

It's up to you where you theory-math it and want top stop. Penalty SA route run to 10 is unlikely to be some awful decision, but you can realistically argue it won't be a great decision either. If you argue 0 route run is optimal when you are pumping speed to 86 base with SP's however, you are not being very intelligent.

====

Unrelated, but for certain positions I'd consider quick cut (aka change direction on defenders) to be one of the best SA's in the game.


Wow--that was very thorough and detailed. I appreciate the time you spent putting that together.

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader

Wow--that was very thorough and detailed. I appreciate the time you spent putting that together.

I appreciate that you quoted my post when I didn't close my underline properly, so now everyone will think i'm a crazy person who underlines everything.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
I appreciate that you quoted my post when I didn't close my underline properly, so now everyone will think i'm a crazy person who underlines everything.


Like that username thing under your avatar? CRAZY

Oh, and some nice blogging going on here Wise

Do you answer any ?s pertaining to casual play?

Why is the power receiving HB considered the unicorn of GLB? And what would make a good build?

Originally posted by Sonic
Why is the power receiving HB considered the unicorn of GLB? And what would make a good build?

That's an intriguing question. So you're suggesting a "power" build, but with what level of catching? Are you suggesting screen passes, or FBs that can go downfield? If downfield, what are you suggesting is the best range of the route they would run?

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
That's an intriguing question. So you're suggesting a "power" build, but with what level of catching? Are you suggesting screen passes, or FBs that can go downfield? If downfield, what are you suggesting is the best range of the route they would run?

Interesting, A power receiving HB? I picture lower agility high strength and speed. But who knows.

Wise, thanks for your response to my earlier question regarding Strength vs Vision on a QB. I wholeheartedly agree with your POV. http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4410897

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
That's an intriguing question. So you're suggesting a "power" build, but with what level of catching? Are you suggesting screen passes, or FBs that can go downfield? If downfield, what are you suggesting is the best range of the route they would run?

Well I'm not sure about the arch, the SA's and the AEq. Your not quite building a power or scat build. Which way do you go, higher strength or higher catching? Would you need FS with juke, PT and SB? Lots of ways to do this.

Originally posted by Sonic
Why is the power receiving HB considered the unicorn of GLB? And what would make a good build?

Has anyone tried a pure power receiving HB?