Warrior General Games

I have two gunners built only for forcing fumbles and their number of fumbles on STs has remained relatively consistent this season as compared to last. I think it is actually HARDER to force fumbles now than it was before. My guess as to what has happened is that in the past people built STOPs much more for returns than for fumble forcing, i.e. they built STOPs to be blockers first and fumble forcers second. Now that building blocking STOPs doesn't benefit you that much, everyone is building their STOPs to be fumble forcers first and blockers second like the one I have shown above. This means that returners are just facing a lot more fumble forcing STOPs than they were before.

The need for crazy amounts of carrying, Avoid Fumble gear and Cover Up, Strength and Confidence are not new. If anything those things are needed less now than before not more. I hope this does not sound mean or presumptuous because I do not mean it that way, but if you did not know until now that you needed those things for a KR that is just a "fix ur builds" problem and not a GLB problem.

If you had asked a top-notch Pro builder or a WL dot builder 8 or 9 seasons ago what amount of these things was needed every single one of them would have said 90+ Carrying, at least 70 Strength, 2 pieces of Avoid Fumble gear, maybe 3, Confidence at least 55, some Cover Up will help but it's so so.

Now they would say 90+ Carrying is great but you can get by with 85, you still want 70 Strength, 1 piece of Avoid Fumble gear is a necessity, 2 is not bad, Cover Up was buffed in the last big set of updates so it's worth having about 6 of now based on cost, Confidence is still worth having 55-60. Fumbles are not the huge issue on returns they were 5-6 seasons ago but they are still something you have to build to avoid because when they happen they can be devastating. Here is my KR/PR:

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/tpaterniti/JimThorpe-3.png

Keep in mind that I started building him 8 seasons ago which is just to say that even back then it was widely known how much carrying and whatnot was needed to avoid frequent fumbling.

I had to learn my lesson the hard way. Here is my KR that I started in season 6:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=1053812

He hit the Pros season 16 and in the preseason with 68 carrying he was a fumbling machine so I had to take a piece of eq from Speed and put it on Caryring and even then he averaged over 8 fumbles a season (with 78 Carrying). Believe me it definitely sucked to build for 10 seasons only to realize I had screwed him up but that was the reality. I tried to learn from it and build a better returner the next go around. I also talked to a lot of people and got advice on how I could improve him.

I will also say there is no shame in getting outside help for your STs. I had been doing a basic setup for Chico and that came to a screeching halt when we barely won a game where their STs scored 28 out of their 37 points. You can check the game out here: http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1882905

That was a wake up call for me. We quickly got together a better setup based on AngryDragon's thread about STs then at the end of that season we hired a STs coordinator first thing. Now our STs coordinator is the same guy who was the coordinator of our opponent in that game so let's say it definitely made an impression.

tpat: your history is a little off...

For the first 7-8 seasons returners had free reign... we were learning how to ff's and no one was really building st focused gunners.

Around season 8-9 was when the first few specialized FF gunners started to make a mark. They dominated until around S18 mostly because people were still building terrible returners and few knew how to setup their st depth charts right.

Season 18ish ST gunners took a huge blow when Bort introduced directional kicks, new BW pathing, and longer hang time on kicks.

From there returner builds kept getting better, especially when Spin/break tacke aeq was working great for returners. This was also about the time that Catches ST unit started to dominate the minor leagues. This is what started the horrible fad of worthless dual-way STOPs. It continues to baffle me how his ST unit failed miserably at the WL level and yet people continue to build STOPs to play both ways.

IMO, the dedicated ST blocker was the STOP to have from then to S27 when Bort nerfed blocking across GLB and effectively killed STs for two seasons (s27/28). It was a waste to have a ST player during these two seasons as fumbles were already nonexistent and now the return game was impossible.

This past offseason fumbles received a buff and returners received a buff to there movements. This is why you are seeing an increase in ST production on both return and coverage teams.

With that in mind, over the past few seasons I have seen returners slack on optimizing their builds to prevents fumbles because there has been so little risk of fumbling (you could get away without anti-fumble aeq in WL) and because Juke is now better than Spin so returners have gone toward fake aeq over bt aeq.

Originally posted by beenlurken


Yello you need to ask yourself why is it that you are always the one who struggles the most with returner fumbles. Catch is partially right, though he should have said "fix ur builds and your shity depth chart setup".

Why am I not surprised you didn't learn anything from our forum battles many seasons ago.

No doubt our ST charts sucked and ST build wise we didn't really get much this season.

But beyond all of that its also clear they upped FFs this season. Thats what I am complaining about.

Our forum discussions have nothing to do with that issue.

Originally posted by tet
I agree in general from anecdotal perspective, and even with specialized STOPs for this purpose, fumbles on returns seem a little too frequent to be realistic to me, as well as returns for TDs off of them... want to reward guys who build good STOPs and have it happen sometimes, could be nerfed just a bit for balance (along with the morale impact).

Exactly.

They want to feed the need for the ST dots to get their plays.

But its in such a crucial area, where whole games can be turned around by it, that that seems unwise.

I am not sure what the answer is, since those folks expectations are not wrong.

But the end result right now is frustrating and unrealistic.

Originally posted by yello1
But beyond all of that its also clear they upped FFs this season. Thats what I am complaining about.

I know that is what you are complaining about. You say that though is if you are surprised...

Jun 8, 2012
- Force fumble chance for non wrap-up style increased a little
- Power tackling style now has a chance to double the strength of big hit, monster hit, and big sack force fumble bonuses

Should have put more emphasis in ST's. It was well known that FF's were getting buffed (even before that announcement).

Originally posted by yello1
Originally posted by tet

I agree in general from anecdotal perspective, and even with specialized STOPs for this purpose, fumbles on returns seem a little too frequent to be realistic to me, as well as returns for TDs off of them... want to reward guys who build good STOPs and have it happen sometimes, could be nerfed just a bit for balance (along with the morale impact).

Exactly.

They want to feed the need for the ST dots to get their plays.

But its in such a crucial area, where whole games can be turned around by it, that that seems unwise.

I am not sure what the answer is, since those folks expectations are not wrong.

But the end result right now is frustrating and unrealistic.



They should make ST dots entertaining to watch. Seasons 27 and 28 were absolutely awful. The buffed gunners ability to force fumbles AS WELL AS the buffed returners ability to evade tacklers. We have not only seen more fumbles but have also seen more big plays/tds from returners too.

STs should be relevant. If you dont respect it as an important area of the game then it should cost you some games against those that do.

ST's is probably the most balanced it has ever been (in fact I worry that once people adjust and fix their builds that FF will become scarce again). If EVERY returner was having fumbling issues you would have an argument but that is simply not the case. If you build a good returner and have someone with half a brain setup your STs you will not have a problem. Instead you want to bitch that your mediocre returner with a shit supporting cast is coughing up the ball. It would be unrealistic for you not to be penalized.

How I miss these yello/BL threads.... : popcorn :

Originally posted by HOODjelly
How I miss these yello/BL threads.... : popcorn :




When you roll out pure shit like this...

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2070945&pbp_id=5062196

...against a team that you have a history of coughing up the ball you forfeit all rights to bitch about fumbling. if anything we should be pissed that play wasnt returned for a td. That is how awful his setup is.

Originally posted by beenlurken


They should make ST dots entertaining to watch. Seasons 27 and 28 were absolutely awful. The buffed gunners ability to force fumbles AS WELL AS the buffed returners ability to evade tacklers. We have not only seen more fumbles but have also seen more big plays/tds from returners too.

STs should be relevant. If you dont respect it as an important area of the game then it should cost you some games against those that do.

ST's is probably the most balanced it has ever been (in fact I worry that once people adjust and fix their builds that FF will become scarce again). If EVERY returner was having fumbling issues you would have an argument but that is simply not the case. If you build a good returner and have someone with half a brain setup your STs you will not have a problem. Instead you want to bitch that your mediocre returner with a shit supporting cast is coughing up the ball. It would be unrealistic for you not to be penalized.

Yeah too manyTD KRs are silly too, same reasons.

Saw one of my KRs had more KR+ PR TDs this season than the NFL record or matched the record. Career record that is.

Silliness.

I do not really have an answer because people do like to see scoring especially by their dots. I do not know how to entertain those ADHD types.

But I do not think driving the rest of us nuts and making the sim laughable is the way to go about it.

Originally posted by beenlurken
I know that is what you are complaining about. You say that though is if you are surprised...

Jun 8, 2012
- Force fumble chance for non wrap-up style increased a little
- Power tackling style now has a chance to double the strength of big hit, monster hit, and big sack force fumble bonuses

Should have put more emphasis in ST's. It was well known that FF's were getting buffed (even before that announcement).

I tried, got someone to do them for me.

Turns out that didnt pan out.

Got someone else to advise. Seems to be better.

But build wise it was a bad season for ST, cant deny that.

But that doesnt mean the game should have silly stats. That means I shouldnt have as good field position and vice versa, etc. It should not make special teams an NBA All star game.

The problem is that in the NFL there are no incompetent STs coordinators or incompetent ST players. Relative to the top level in the NFL game, they are all close. In other words the margin between the best and the worst STs unit in the NFL (including returner, STers, STs coordinator) is very slim. In GLB this margin can be very wide. Basically you have Pro teams with STs coordinators who are excellent and STOPs that are built very well and you have other teams where both are totally absent. What would happen if an NFL team hired some random teenager or 20-something guy who knew very little about STs to manage their STs? Then let's assume that the players in real life had to do exactly what he told them to do (i.e. they couldn't set it up themselves when they realized he was incompetent). They would get eaten alive and you would see extreme results like you sometimes see in GLB.

But this presents bort with a dilemma. If the reason something is bad is because many users are just bad at it, should he make it less bad? That was the fiasco of last season. On games like this, it is typically best to make the top end of the game work, which means the best builds and the best coordinators can play well and to the degree that either is worse they struggle. When players know that no matter how hard they work or how much they know they cannot improve the performance of their team outside of a very narrow margin, they get bored and leave. Why work harder? Why learn more? Either way the result is a lukewarm, mediocre outcome where nothing much happens good or bad. People need to know that the feature does actually work. Maybe I haven't figured out how to make it work, but there is a way to make it work and several people have figured it out. It's something I can shoot for.

I will stop before this turns into a politics and religion thread.

Originally posted by regnac
Originally posted by yello1

Putting up a nice fight against a better team and the idiotic FF rate makes my 90 carry 15 Kick Return VA with 30% boost to holding on to the ball makes his umpteenth return fumble this season and the opposition runs it back without breaking stride.

Just furious right now.....

Well, lets go see how the rest of the game goes.

Hey, same here, lost to Maori today on 2 KO FF's!! LOVE IT!
Sorry reg.

Originally posted by tpaterniti
.... On games like this, it is typically best to make the top end of the game work, which means the best builds and the best coordinators can play well and to the degree that either is worse they struggle. ...

I would submit that the dwindling player base stands as mute testimony to the contrary.

No one enjoys being beaten 100-0.

And someone looking for an NFL simulation would not expect that to happen, regardless of what side of the score they are on.

This is a game for fun,

And also an NFL simulation*

Therefore 100-0 games, or any glaring imbalance is a fail on both counts.

As an NFL simulation the very worst build on the field should never be a girl scout, no matter how bad the owner screws up the build.

And the very worst game plan should not be able to be as bad as a blown game plan in GLB can be.

In reality the weakest guy on an NFL line is a monster, and the slowest d-back blazing fast. That should be the bottom range of performance of any dot in those positions, nothing less.

And all of those players and their coaches know how to adapt.

Which means that if a play call in the game plan leaves an open receiver, that play doesnt get called again in the game. No matter what the original game plan was. If an offensive play is not gaining yards, it doesnt get played again. If something is working, it gets called again. If a receiver is uncovered the MLB calls an audible to cover him. If the house is blitzing the QB audibles accordingly. That is what NFL play is.

That is what the system must provide.

Because the game is not "live", then adaptations to deal with situations have to be in the hard ware.

And the dots can never be that much worse than the opposition.

That is how you avoid lopsided silliness in outcomes - and the flood of players out the door that such silliness leads to.

Hard to manage that, no doubt.

But if Bort wants to be rich for life, he needs to figure it out.


* = Do not say otherwise folks, Bort can protest all he wants but when he made it a sim of American Pro Football he meant NFL because thats the only American Pro Football anyone cares about.

Originally posted by yello1
I would submit that the dwindling player base stands as mute testimony to the contrary.

No one enjoys being beaten 100-0.

And someone looking for an NFL simulation would not expect that to happen, regardless of what side of the score they are on.

This is a game for fun,

And also an NFL simulation*

Therefore 100-0 games, or any glaring imbalance is a fail on both counts.

As an NFL simulation the very worst build on the field should never be a girl scout, no matter how bad the owner screws up the build.

And the very worst game plan should not be able to be as bad as a blown game plan in GLB can be.

In reality the weakest guy on an NFL line is a monster, and the slowest d-back blazing fast. That should be the bottom range of performance of any dot in those positions, nothing less.

And all of those players and their coaches know how to adapt.

Which means that if a play call in the game plan leaves an open receiver, that play doesnt get called again in the game. No matter what the original game plan was. If an offensive play is not gaining yards, it doesnt get played again. If something is working, it gets called again. If a receiver is uncovered the MLB calls an audible to cover him. If the house is blitzing the QB audibles accordingly. That is what NFL play is.

That is what the system must provide.

Because the game is not "live", then adaptations to deal with situations have to be in the hard ware.

And the dots can never be that much worse than the opposition.

That is how you avoid lopsided silliness in outcomes - and the flood of players out the door that such silliness leads to.

Hard to manage that, no doubt.

But if Bort wants to be rich for life, he needs to figure it out.


* = Do not say otherwise folks, Bort can protest all he wants but when he made it a sim of American Pro Football he meant NFL because thats the only American Pro Football anyone cares about.



100-0 games are the result of horrible league structure. We would not have this problem if Bort would manage end game CPU gut job teams better and structure the league in such a way that teams with huge talent gaps dont play each other.

As we have said before, you are a fool for thinking it would be good for the game to basically make dot building irrelevant. That is what you are asking for whether you admit it or not. You want teams with the worst built dots and worst coordinators to have a chance to upset a team with the best dots and the best coordinators. How do you not see how incredibly ridiculous that is? Seriously, what would be the point of building a dot... especially when it takes over a year to build it?

Also...

Originally posted by
Goal Line Blitz is a web-based American Football MMORPG. We've written a custom football simulation engine to provide you with the ultimate football experience on the web.

It does not say "American Pro Football".