Warrior General Games

Putting up a nice fight against a better team and the idiotic FF rate makes my 90 carry 15 Kick Return VA with 30% boost to holding on to the ball makes his umpteenth return fumble this season and the opposition runs it back without breaking stride.

Just furious right now.....

Well, lets go see how the rest of the game goes.

Yeah, that was even worse than I expected.

Second KR FF didn't help.

Got too behind too early. Catch up, Clock burn just threw the gameplanning out the window.

Anyone want a used Care Meter?

inb4fixurbuild

Originally posted by yello1
Anyone want a used Care Meter?

Are you gonna make payroll this season?

Well to be fair consider the type of player who is running at your KR:

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/tpaterniti/Stevetasker-1.png

For starters he weighs 120 lbs more than your returner. He also has only 9% less Force Fumble Chance than you have Avoid Fumble Chance, maybe less since you probably don't actually have 30%, and he also has 6 more Tackling than you have Carrying, which is magnified by STer and Power Tackler, he also has 10 Head Hunter, 11 Monster Hit, which with the new changes now has a chance to have a double impact to fumble forcing per:

Originally posted by Changelog

Power tackling style now has a chance to double the strength of big hit, monster hit, and big sack force fumble bonuses


These are the types of gunners running at your returner. Cover Up helps a lot, Confidence should be a minimum of 60 or you will be a fumble machine, KR Specialist won't do anything for fumbles. Having said that, sometimes you do get RNGed and it just sucks, and once it happens your guy is much more likely to fumble again. So I guess I am saying there is probably a build related reason why it happened, not necessarily your build but the ones you are facing, but sometimes even if your build is perfect you still lose out, and if that was the case then I sympathize.

Originally posted by yello1
Putting up a nice fight against a better team and the idiotic FF rate makes my 90 carry 15 Kick Return VA with 30% boost to holding on to the ball makes his umpteenth return fumble this season and the opposition runs it back without breaking stride.

Just furious right now.....

Well, lets go see how the rest of the game goes.



Hey, same here, lost to Maori today on 2 KO FF's!! LOVE IT!

Originally posted by Jughead
Are you gonna make payroll this season?



Yeah should be okay there unless my guestimate was off, the way it was off last season.

Originally posted by regnac
Hey, same here, lost to Maori today on 2 KO FF's!! LOVE IT!

Asked about this in Q&A, Catch said "fixurbuild".

Originally posted by tpaterniti
These are the types of gunners running at your returner. Cover Up helps a lot, Confidence should be a minimum of 60 or you will be a fumble machine, KR Specialist won't do anything for fumbles. Having said that, sometimes you do get RNGed and it just sucks, and once it happens your guy is much more likely to fumble again. So I guess I am saying there is probably a build related reason why it happened, not necessarily your build but the ones you are facing, but sometimes even if your build is perfect you still lose out, and if that was the case then I sympathize.

Thats very helpful to compare and discuss, thanks.

As to the points,

You would think that Confidence would be a comparison not a solo thing. "I Think I Can" should work both ways. In that regard your guy is comparable to our KR. But I hadn't thought of that, thanks for the info.

I meant the Return Man VA, not the SA (which he has 10 in, though it doesnt show much). RM adds 2% to Fumble Avoidance per point, and the KR has 15 in it, so yes its 30%. He doesn't have an AEQ in it though so that does offset to the AEQ on your guy. Duly noted.

As for the rest, also duly noted and appreciated. Is that how it works? Tackle versus Carrying? Where does Strength come into play, straight comparison?

But all of that said, my point is not that "OMgosh this guy dropped the ball ever" but that he did it at least twice in this game and has done it in every single game this season with some extras. And we had two cake games!

KR fumbles ought to be a relative rarity in the "Pro" level of play. If a KR dropped the ball 1.5 times a game in reality, he would be unemployed.

This guy is not so horribly built that he should be unemployed.

And yes, I know they upped the KR this season. Its why its happening, I know. I think they over did it.

I understand the FF dot builders want their dots to perform. But its a very crucial part of the game and having it suddenly start sprouting turnovers on your goal line lends itself to lopsided run away games - and those are not fun. I spent ten hours prepping for this game, and I couldn't even watch it for more than 20 minutes. Probably no one on the winning team did either out of boredom.

Thats entertainment? Not so much.

Not that the KR was the only reason. But it sealed the deal early. We didn't get the morale back after that.

Anyway, thanks for the information. Now I know how to build my young KRs and FF machines a bit better than I did before - and why which is even more helpful.

I agree in general from anecdotal perspective, and even with specialized STOPs for this purpose, fumbles on returns seem a little too frequent to be realistic to me, as well as returns for TDs off of them... want to reward guys who build good STOPs and have it happen sometimes, could be nerfed just a bit for balance (along with the morale impact).

Avoiding fumbles is mostly Carrying, Cover Up, Avoid Fumble EQ, Confidence Helps and Strength helps. Weight also plays a factor. In general you just don't want to be a lot weaker or lighter than your opponent. Attribute wise forcing fumbles is Tackling and Strength mostly. Some people think Strength is a bigger factor, but I believe Tackling is a bigger factor. Then it is all about stacking things that increase fumble chance. Confidence is of debatable importance. It is a major for power backs. Mine has 70, my rushing FB has 60 and my KR has 60. If you have much less than that you fumble more. You could make a case for less and I am sure some people will. 70 was probably overkill. A lot also depends on who you are facing. As I like to say, We aren't play horseshoes, i.e. it's not just you and that's it. You are playing someone else who also has an excellent build and sometimes even if you do everything right you still lose.

Anyway, I am not sure how Return Specialist VA works, but I am almost positive it does not equal +30% avoid fumble as if you had that much Avoid Fumble aeq. In general I would look at it as a necessity but not put to much stock in it. A lot of VAs unfortunately counter each other, so you have to have it, but you don't expect much from it because you know that almost 100% of the time your opponent has the counter VA.

For example, Pass Rusher VA gives a 2% per level bonus to agility and strength on 3rd and 4th down. But Pass Blocker gives a 2% bonus to blocking and agility on 2nd and 10+ and on all 3rd and 4th downs. Chances are most D-linemen have Pass Rusher and most O-linemen have Pass Blocker, so you shouldn't add Pass Blocker and expect to perform out of this world. You add Pass blocker and expect that it has now put you on even terms with the D-linemen (i.e. most of them) who have Pass Rusher.

This is exactly the situation for force fumble/avoid fumble. You have added Return Man, which among other things gives a 2% per level bonus to avoiding fumbles (=30% however it works), but all STOPs geared towards forcing fumbles have added Power Tackler, which gives among other things a 3% per level bonus to forcing fumbles (=45% however it works). On top of that they probably have at least 21.5% Force Fumble gear.

One thing you could do would be to simply buy a neq custom eq with +12% Avoid Fumble chance. Avoid Fumble chance eq is pretty much a necessity on all returners regardless of how much carrying you have unless you make it insanely high, like over 110 or something.

Yello you need to ask yourself why is it that you are always the one who struggles the most with returner fumbles. Catch is partially right, though he should have said "fix ur builds and your shity depth chart setup".

Why am I not surprised you didn't learn anything from our forum battles many seasons ago.

Originally posted by tet
I agree in general from anecdotal perspective, and even with specialized STOPs for this purpose, fumbles on returns seem a little too frequent to be realistic to me, as well as returns for TDs off of them... want to reward guys who build good STOPs and have it happen sometimes, could be nerfed just a bit for balance (along with the morale impact).

It has been so difficult to force fumbles on ST until this season that returners have been neglecting avoid fumble aspects of their builds (hell, I was even getting away with no anti-fumble aeq in WL because ff's were so difficult). If you give it a few seasons you will see returners counter and the FFs drop a little bit

That said I think the balance is just right as we have good returners on good st setups that have only fumbled once so far and we have average to poor returners on shity setups that have dumbed 9 times so far.

If you have a problem on STs its all on you.

would help if you change your ST depth chart

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2070946&pbp_id=5465738

no way your WR can block my gunner

Originally posted by Disastermaster
would help if you change your ST depth chart

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2070946&pbp_id=5465738

no way your WR can block my gunner

Youre wasting your time. We have been through this many times with him and he refuses to learn and apply that knowledge.