Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Shalubis
Hazy - thanks. Taut and PP posts above are the best I've read in ages. Saving season 9 - thanks.

+1

Latest updates on testing:

Originally posted by Bort

With forced increased avoidance at the line removed, pretty similar results:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=659

Removal of slowdown from passing through defender dots. Not much difference:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=660

I'm thinking the main culprit must have to do more with blocking (as I generally suspect - good blocking is HUGE for the run game) and the defense's reactions because changing the RB behavior doesn't do all that much beyond making him move more realistically.

Test: large blocker bonus, not much difference, LB's just ate up the run instead. Several games with varying strengths.

Increasing vision checks dramatically for reaction time on spy and just in general towards the run:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=664

BIG difference. I think this is the rub - reaction time by the secondary and LB's is just too high.

Originally posted by thehazyone
Ran a test sim (still on pass/long settings) and it was definitely better but still not where I think it should be. If a team is on pass/long, I think the defenders, especially the LB's, should be playing further off the line of scrimmage then they currently are. It's still able to stop the run with relative ease.

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=676

Check out this play and pay particular attention to the MLB:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=676&pbp_id=169568

Is there anyway we can get the MLB to slow down going through traffic? I think that could be one of the problems, especially with outside runs, is that LB's can seemingly just get through the a 4-5 people engaging in blocking assignments with no decrease in speed or balance. The MLB took a perfect angle in this play - which is good - but he went right through 4 people to do so.

Originally posted by thehazyone
Ran a 2nd test sim including the pitch plays and this time with defense on medium/balanced. Averages were just under 3 YPC, so it's close to where it should be but again still not quite there (and I think it's a bit problematic as mentioned above that Pass/Long is actually a bit more effective at stopping the run than Balanced/Medium).

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=677

Maybe some of the problem on outside runs is with WR blocking? Check out this play where the WR doesn't engage the CB at all and the CB goes in untouched to make the stop. Maybe the WR should run a route to pull the CB with him (like on the 2nd play listed here) and the CB would need a good vision check in order to recognize the run?

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=677&pbp_id=169699
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=677&pbp_id=169703

Here's another example of poor blocking logic by the WR. Instead of going to take on the corner he moves to the middle of the field to take on other players. This gives the CB an unopposed path to the ball carrier and the result is an easy tackle. Perhaps the logic for a WR blocking should be to block the CB unless he is on the ground? Thing is - this problem doesn't take place on every play, but it takes place enough that I notice it when it does.

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=677&pbp_id=169705

what do the line backers from your first test have for vision?

I only have time to skim through the early posts, so forgive me.

If you load up 100% to stop the run you SHOULD kill it. Maybe not so much weak side run if everythign is loaded strong side...but still.

If passing gets killed then you have a serious problem. Shoould be able to throw over the 8 men in the box fairly effectively at medium-long distance vs. the short load.

Need to have a set of Play Action passes that would create a pause in defenders reaction to passing, opening up the defense a little and preventing massive overloads.

Also can you have a look at the short passing game.....

Screens are a joke and bust away for too many big gains....
and the west coast offense is so bad in GLB that Bill Walsh would have never made it to the HoF

Originally posted by PP


Final thoughts:
Don't over react because ppl were screaming. By far the biggest problem was that there was no penalty to running the same play 30 or more times a game and that a PB could have 40+ carries without a drop off in production. The repeated play thing sucks, and has happened every single ssn since the O AI was unveiled (it's just that so many did it this ssn that it finally got noticed). Frankly, it sucks playing PO games where the other team runs 1 play 40-70 times. The play penalty takes care of that.

60-70% of the plays in the play book in the passing game are flat out horrible and have been since they were 1st introduced (bump that up to 70-80% for the run plays). They just don't work against a decent team under all but the most ridiculous circumstances. Some of the pass plays don't even make an football sense at all. They desperately need to be deleted and new, functional plays inserted in their place.

Don't overreact by overpowering the passing game. IMO, the only thing that absolutely needed to be fixed was the QB hitting open WRs/TEs/HBs, instead of forcing the ball so much into double and triple coverage. Leading the WR should be improved slightly. However, again, don't over react by making it any more than 20% better or you just killed the D.

Think that's it


Quoted and emphasized for impact.

These are the problems.

Originally posted by

Originally posted by Bort
What would you say is the likely culprit? The main modifications we've done as far as the run game:

- reduce fall forward
- increased energy usage per carry (are the backs maybe getting tired too quickly?)
- Recuded ability to plow through existing players
- D line shifts
- LB's don't back away from the line as often, and stay home more

Another thing to consider:

Are you using all of the plays (including draws, etc)? In practice, real live teams (outside of casual I suppose) will be fine tuning their playbook to use the plays that are best suited to them and will usually end up with ~25% higher rushing yards because of it, from past experience.


Bort, It's real easy to figure out. There is no culprit. The run game was too powerful. Lets say it was 1.5 ypc too powerful. Each one of those tweaks may add up to on average .5 ypc worth of defensive stoppage. You've nerfed too much. Either remove 2 of those 'fixes' or cut each one in half.

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by PP



Final thoughts:
Don't over react because ppl were screaming. By far the biggest problem was that there was no penalty to running the same play 30 or more times a game and that a PB could have 40+ carries without a drop off in production. The repeated play thing sucks, and has happened every single ssn since the O AI was unveiled (it's just that so many did it this ssn that it finally got noticed). Frankly, it sucks playing PO games where the other team runs 1 play 40-70 times. The play penalty takes care of that.

60-70% of the plays in the play book in the passing game are flat out horrible and have been since they were 1st introduced (bump that up to 70-80% for the run plays). They just don't work against a decent team under all but the most ridiculous circumstances. Some of the pass plays don't even make an football sense at all. They desperately need to be deleted and new, functional plays inserted in their place.

Don't overreact by overpowering the passing game. IMO, the only thing that absolutely needed to be fixed was the QB hitting open WRs/TEs/HBs, instead of forcing the ball so much into double and triple coverage. Leading the WR should be improved slightly. However, again, don't over react by making it any more than 20% better or you just killed the D.

Think that's it


Quoted and emphasized for impact.

These are the problems.

True that. Also add in a repeated play penalty for plain ol' just running the ball or just passing. If you know it's going to be a pass, you should have a better chance to stop the play IMO.

This fix alone would solve the problem.

We have found that a lot of the problems with runs other than the STR I SLam due more with the way the O-line is programed to block. In certain formations the RG will just release the DT. This can be forced if you blitz the right guys (SS mainly). The only play that the line appears to block correctly is the STR I Slam.

Best of luck either way Bort... its going to be like what happened to DEs. Crappy built HBs with good o-lines where thinking they are incredible players... much like what happened to DEs with 50+ sacks in a season a couple seasons ago. Now they will become more realistic and hate it.

You can't win either way....

Can we get rosters to allow the community to pipe up on system issue vs. build issue?

I still see the Combo back getting slowly better as bort removed the changes but the PB stayed at a constant but acceptable level of performance.

Yep, thanks hazy for working with me on this. One other thing I think I need to work on (I've got a test running on this on my dev box at the moment) is that blockers need to try to rotate themselves to be more in the middle between the ball carrier and the tackler. They used to do this much better, but somewhere along the way I changed it around and they don't do it anymore - they just sorta stay locked in the same position and push the guy away.

Originally posted by thehazyone

Ran a 2nd test sim including the pitch plays and this time with defense on medium/balanced. Averages were just under 3 YPC, so it's close to where it should be but again still not quite there (and I think it's a bit problematic as mentioned above that Pass/Long is actually a bit more effective at stopping the run than Balanced/Medium).

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=677

Maybe some of the problem on outside runs is with WR blocking? Check out this play where the WR doesn't engage the CB at all and the CB goes in untouched to make the stop. Maybe the WR should run a route to pull the CB with him (like on the 2nd play listed here) and the CB would need a good vision check in order to recognize the run?

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=677&pbp_id=169699
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=677&pbp_id=169703

Here's another example of poor blocking logic by the WR. Instead of going to take on the corner he moves to the middle of the field to take on other players. This gives the CB an unopposed path to the ball carrier and the result is an easy tackle. Perhaps the logic for a WR blocking should be to block the CB unless he is on the ground? Thing is - this problem doesn't take place on every play, but it takes place enough that I notice it when it does.

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=677&pbp_id=169705



Would using the new FB blocking code for WR's fix this?

Originally posted by kingofgod
Would using the new FB blocking code for WR's fix this?

Maybe...the WR's start out running a route to try and fake the CB's up the field generally, though. I could change it to lead block, but the CB's would not have the same reaction time penalties.