Warrior General Games

Does deflected passes make it easier for a KL? and how does FF% factor into a KL?

Good question

So the cliff notes version is...

Sort of during the catching process, but not really, there's a window of opportunity for the defense to score a special kind of forced fumbled called a KL (knocked Loose). This KL roll is helped by Jackhammer SA, and resisted by Brace for Impact SA. A KL is easier to do than a regular FF though.

Everything that normally helps a forced fumble helps the KL roll. Everything that normally helps resist fumbles, helps resist the KL.

Here's a quickie on how FFs work. http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4488804&page=3#40817670
Originally posted by
Fumanchuchu
On making tackles vs forcing fumbles:

Does every successful tackle get a force fumble roll? Or does the make tackle roll have to reach a certain threshold to trigger a force fumble roll?
Is Make Tackle % AEQ included in the "tackle quality" part of the FF roll? Is tackle quality even a thing?


Originally posted by Bort
You have to reach a certain threshold of quality to get a fumble roll try. Make tackle % does help improve that.

So in theory, deflected passes actually reduce the chance for a KL, because the ball must be caught first. Of course the net effect of the KL is identical to a Deflected pass, it just shows up differently on the stat sheet. If you're specifically chasing KL stats, you don't want DEF% gear or Swat Ball VA. You'd be better off spending those resources on FF% and/or MT%, and Jackhammer & Monster Hit SAs.

here's a bunch of links to sift through
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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046016
Originally posted by Player
Are they two separate rolls. I mean does it go:

1. Catch Ball vs whatever
then
2. Knocked Loose roll vs whatever

I guess I'm asking, if some one already has enough carrying, will this matter to the initial catch?
Originally posted by Bort
Once you've caught the ball (PD vs catch), the defender, if he can react in time, has a chance to smack you and try to knock it loose. That's a separate roll.


Originally posted by Player
When the replay says "caught and knocked loose" does "caught" actually mean physically completely caught (as in cupped in the hands) or can it also mean "being bobbled" and/or "touching the hands."

From the replays sometimes it seems a knocked loose is more of a CB swatting the actual ball out from the hands or pushing the receiver right after the ball touches his hands.
Originally posted by Bort
It means they have gotten their hands on the ball in some respect. It takes a couple ticks to have "possession" though. That's where your carrying starts to come into play, if you get smacked before fully reeling it in.

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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3718235
KNOCKED LOOSE ROLLS
Q: timthorn - Do FF% AEQ, Wrap-Up, Power Tackle, and similar VA's, SA's, and AEQ affect Knocked Loose rolls?
A: Catch22 - I know tackling setting does - the harder the hit the more likely you'll knock loose a pass.
A: Bort - Yep, just like the tactics settings do. Anything that can make you hit harder can pop the ball loose.
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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4368134&page=5#39349694
Basically I am looking for anatomy post-catch

IE:

Receiver passes make catch roll (not secure.. can still be knocked loose)
Defender knocked loose roll vs receiver anti-KL roll (have to assume this can happen after x amount of ticks following receiver passing make catch roll)

Once x amount of ticks for KL roll to take place...
Defender tackle roll vs receiver break tackle roll until the play is over (tackle, turnover, score, out of bounce, etc)


Also interested in whether the anti-KL roll is the same roll as the break tackle roll or if it is different (should be different but...)

Bort -- KL is basically a special version of fumble/anti-fumble in the few moments after catching the ball. The "anatomy" for fumbles applies.
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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4829505&page=4#44683770
Originally posted by Hagalaz

6) After a knocked loose pass, is there still a chance for interception? It used to happen, but haven't seen one in many seasons.


Originally posted by Bort

No, that was disabled a while ago when it caused a few various issues.
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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4874338&page=4#45209585
Originally posted by IIAMLEGEND
In general would a player have a better chance of knocking a ball loose, playing a receiver tight so that he cant lay the hit immediately after the catch or loose so that he can gain maybe a bit of momentum before flying in for the tackle.

And also do tackle settings have a great impact, as in wrap up, or power.


Originally posted by Bort
A defender playing further off would have a better chance to knock loose, just due to momentum, assuming he can make it to the receiver in time (otherwise it's a force fumble attempt, which would be harder to pull off).

Yes, tackle settings do have an impact on KL. It is essentially a special case force fumble roll.
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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=5084141&page=1#47368111
Originally posted by Lord Jashin
Does the Cover Up SA help against having the ball knocked loose? If so, what's the difference with Brace for Impact (regarding KL)? Does B4I give a bigger bonus since it's more "situational"?


Brace for impact has a better chance of working and a bigger effect on knock loose rolls.
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Thanks TJ for the info

Just thinking this over again. You have to meet a Tackle quota and then the FF% adds to the tackle number like a multiplier? Also does Big Hit and Monster hit create a different type of tackle roll or are they just multiplier of the tackle number as well? One last question does head hunter actually have enough space to fire in the secondary or is it mainly a special teams gunner SA?

So remember how it all works...

Your attributes go into the magic formula of the SIM first (modifiers like current speed, weight, angle of attack, time of day, shoe size and whatever else bort threw in) Then SA bonuses might get added. Then % gear happens, and the SIM spits out your current tackle number.

The SIM does the same for the ball carrier.

Then both players roll a die to add a RNG component and add it to get a grand total.

If the defense is higher a tackle is made.

If the defense wins higher by enough then there's a chance to force a fumble.

Again the defense adds up all their stuff, and tacks on the %.

The offense does the same.

Another RNG is made to see if the fumble happens.

Edit: oh yeah, Head Hunter. All it says is you have to be traveling close to max speed. So however that happens. There's no animation for it so, there's no "proof" either way. My assumption would be it's either (a) powerful, but hard to make it fire, or (b) weaker but works more often.

I'll add to TJ's bit on Head Hunter. It's a SA bonus for SA's. TBPH, Monster Hit and Big Hit. By itself, it doesn't seem to necessarily "fire"... but rather it gives a stock 'undisclosed bonus' to those 2 SA's and to all possible 'fumble' rolls. IMHO? Likely, at best, a 10% chance if fully filled in (10 in SA). So if building a FF style dot and you're getting Monster Hit and Big Hit then I would think it's a good addition. Otherwise, no. (IMHO)

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Originally posted by Bort
It means they have gotten their hands on the ball in some respect. It takes a couple ticks to have "possession" though. That's where your carrying starts to come into play, if you get smacked before fully reeling it in.

Originally posted by Fred Ex
Does deflected passes make it easier for a KL? and how does FF% factor into a KL?

Like TJ said a full deflect means no chance at a KL, but I have been noticing on those partial success deflects (like this one: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=17489&pbp_id=631430 ), several times where the WR bobbles it for like 2-3 ticks, gets hit during that window, and coughs it up for a KL.

I don't have proof of course, because the partial deflect only shows up in the PBP if the catch is successfully made. But it certainly SEEMS like those partial deflects are happening on some KLs. Obviously the partial deflect turns into a "full one" as far as the PBP is concerned, if the receiver doesn't have high enough catch score to make the penalized catch roll from the partial swat (confirmed in Q/As).

And Bort's quote about taking a couple ticks to have full possession, I feel like on those partially deflected, "just barely made the catch" plays, it would be kind of logical that window gets extended a little and/or there's a penalty to resisting the KL if you were bobbling. Or maybe I just need more carrying on my WRs.

Some of our lighter Str, 0% FF dots, have been scoring the odd KL here and there lately, so I also suspect (no confirmation that I remember seeing in the Q&As), that similar to the force fumble roll, if the tackle roll succeeds "by a lot" - that it's adding a pretty noticeable bonus to the KL roll.

The number of times Bort said the KL roll is just a specialized FF roll, wouldn't surprise me in the least if that same mechanic works on that interaction like "normal" tackles.

@ Gambler75. I'm with you on 'Wr's bobbled catch attempts'. someone surely will post about Bort's "replays ain't exact" but I've seen enough of them to have seen many balls reach the catch area... get wobbly (even IF it doesn't say 'deflected by X') then get intercepted. Sometimes that's a 'deflect' that the defender then catches... but sometimes I suspect the receiver 'bobbled' the catch and the defender was the lucky dog.

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Yeah. Was thinking the same thing. Ai is really going to screw with the world in really irritating ways.

Bort is going to have to do something one day.