Warrior General Games

Ok so this might be dumb, but after digging a bit I think that I think, that Ballhawk changes the arrival spot of the ball.

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3114548&pbp_id=776423

So the WR is slow AF. Pause the play about half way through and go frame by frame.

The CB has no problem hanging with him while running the route, right there beside him step for step.

When the QB releases the ball, the CB takes off leaving my WR in the dust, and head for the ball arrival spot. There's about a full dot length of separation and the CB sets up at the 45 waiting on the ball to get there. The ball is only about half way there.

He sits in that 1 spot for 10 full ticks.

When my slow ass WR finally gets there, he moves back 1 tick, while the ball is still in the air. And then the next tick, my WR makes the catch.

Did Ballhawk cause the trajectory of the ball to change making the CB move off his spot?

I'm going to look at more replays.

Or, could it be that, as much as we're used to it looking like dots are constantly running through one another, that the WR just got to the spot where the CB was waiting and just kind of ran into him, and then the momentum took them both a "step" further from the ball, and that new spot was where the catch happened?

I just can't conceive of Ballhawk being coded to alter the flight of the ball traveling in the air.

Yeah. I think I'm losing my mind.

If it happens it should happen on every single target, not just the catches.

It's hard to rationalize.

That would be a great question for Bort.

What if the answer is the QB always throws to the Ballhawk point, and if the defender wins the "get ball 1st" roll, he makes a cutoff point. If the WR wins, the ball goes where it was intended.

Originally posted by
Ball Hawk
This player has a nose for the ball. Each level of Ball Hawk gives a +1% bonus to speed, agility, and vision from the moment the player sees a pass coming until it is caught or dropped. Applies on offense and defenders in zone coverage.


What if...

The QB assumes the Ballhawk WR will always see the pass coming at a certain point and adjust the throw accordingly.

The "get ball first" roll doesn't happen (presumably) until the defender and receiver get close to each other, so the CB will go to his cut off point, and then roll when the WR arrives.

The reason we don't see the Ballhawk effect on all routes is because the defender often wins "get ball first" and his cut off works.

90%+ of WRs don't bother with Ballhawk at all. There's probably close to 0 WRs who build with high enough Vision and Jumping to beat CBs in the get ball first roll on a regular basis. Those are the only ones who would see a benefit from Ballhawk.

Just for the record I like to call it the anti-PD roll, because "get ball first" roll sounds stupid, even if more accurate.

TJ, the vision check for offensive players to notice the ball was thrown is basically non-existent, so all WR's instantly see the ball once it is thrown and begin reacting to it (and even DB's have a crazy short reaction time to thrown balls fwiw).

Thus, the vision boost from ballhawk is worthless for anything EXCEPT the boost to the anti-PD roll. But Catching >> Jumping >>>> Vision for the Anti-PD roll, so I don't think +15% is a tangible target.

And since the QB does not consider ballhawk spd+agi when throwing the ball, the only time it gets to kick-in in a helpful way is an overthrow that is marginally overthrown just enough to active the boosts but still be reachable.

Generally overthrows = low pass quality = easy for the defender to win the roll, so your marginal overthrow also likely needs to be to a space with no defenders close by.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Ok so this might be dumb, but after digging a bit I think that I think, that Ballhawk changes the arrival spot of the ball.

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3114548&pbp_id=776423

So the WR is slow AF. Pause the play about half way through and go frame by frame.

The CB has no problem hanging with him while running the route, right there beside him step for step.

When the QB releases the ball, the CB takes off leaving my WR in the dust, and head for the ball arrival spot. There's about a full dot length of separation and the CB sets up at the 45 waiting on the ball to get there. The ball is only about half way there.

He sits in that 1 spot for 10 full ticks.

When my slow ass WR finally gets there, he moves back 1 tick, while the ball is still in the air. And then the next tick, my WR makes the catch.

Did Ballhawk cause the trajectory of the ball to change making the CB move off his spot?

I'm going to look at more replays.


I think you might be losing your mind, but this interaction has nothing to do with ballhawk. Fwiw, do we even know the CB was in zone here? Remember man coverage defenders don't active ballhawk, only zone.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Just for the record I like to call it the anti-PD roll, because "get ball first" roll sounds stupid, even if more accurate.

Let's call it what it really should be called. "Reach Ball First Roll"

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
I think you might be losing your mind, but this interaction has nothing to do with ballhawk. Fwiw, do we even know the CB was in zone here? Remember man coverage defenders don't active ballhawk, only zone.


CBs are inherently good at "1st" roll. I'm not really concerned with that.

This is my WR, and it has 15 in BH. Currently 74+ Vision, 73 Jumping, 84+ Catching, 51+ Strength.
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4811837
This is a WR request from the great and powerful Novus. I thought jacking Vision though the roof might be able to overcome the lack of Jumping. That doesn't work, in case anyone is wondering.

Novus has gone AWOL so I can screw around with that build all I want.

My goal is to create a build theory that could reliably win that "1st" roll. In case I don't quit this stupid game after Bort tells us all to go screw ourselves for Season 100.

Originally posted by

The interaction is still the same. It's pretty much that whoever has the highest "get the ball" roll gets to act first. This includes your vision, jumping, catching, strength attributes, and catch/swat SA's/VAs/pcts.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Ok so this might be dumb, but after digging a bit I think that I think, that Ballhawk changes the arrival spot of the ball.

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3114548&pbp_id=776423

So the WR is slow AF. Pause the play about half way through and go frame by frame.

The CB has no problem hanging with him while running the route, right there beside him step for step.

When the QB releases the ball, the CB takes off leaving my WR in the dust, and head for the ball arrival spot. There's about a full dot length of separation and the CB sets up at the 45 waiting on the ball to get there. The ball is only about half way there.

He sits in that 1 spot for 10 full ticks.

When my slow ass WR finally gets there, he moves back 1 tick, while the ball is still in the air. And then the next tick, my WR makes the catch.

Did Ballhawk cause the trajectory of the ball to change making the CB move off his spot?

I'm going to look at more replays.






Um... I have answer? CB is 6 foot tall. WR is 6'6" tall. Ball is on target (not behind or off to either side) and WR hardly breaks stride. CB makes a nice jump but can't win the 'Get The Ball' roll... attempts tackle (misses)... falls down. Note the high arc of the pass? QB (thankfully) is not set to high Bullet so ball is out of CB's reach.

(Edit) So, Novus had an idea and we'll just have to see if it's sound or not but I'm game to work with it. Idea is Tall and Strong and good jumping vs CB's that are generally built for Weak, short, and fast WR's (speed). We should win more of the 'Get The Ball' rolls but we'll see about the rest of it all. There's many moving parts to a completed catch.

For what it matters. I’ve run An all passing team twice. High vision wr tend to alter their routes more and more often even when set to run route exact.

Originally posted by Dr. E
For what it matters. I’ve run An all passing team twice. High vision wr tend to alter their routes more and more often even when set to run route exact.

The more I do OC work, DC work, and from all those years (lost much of my life back then) doing Scout work... the more I am convinced that Vision, maybe more than any other skill, is the key to a decent passing offense (or... if you prefer... a decent pass stopping defense).

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3936433

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Adderfist- Do QB's throw to where WR's are going to be? or where WR's should be?

In conjunction- Does ballhawk add on to the lead the QB gives WR's?

Bort- Yes, they can lead the WR based on his route and upcoming cuts in the route. The QB takes into account current speed and max speed, but not ball hawk. Ball hawk for receivers is more for getting to bad passes.

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and re-confirmed https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4540104&page=3#41528047

I hate it when I'm dumb in public

Originally posted by TJ Spikes


I hate it when I'm dumb in public



Dude... old age sucks but you get use to it after a while. Cannot (and will not) even begin to count the number of times that's happened to me.

So the TL;Dr of this thread is Ballhawk is 100% worthless to 99.9% of pass catchers on offense. It's 70% worthless to the remaining .01% of them who take Vision into the mid 80s or higher.