Warrior General Games

The idea would be to drastically increase vision, and slightly increase agility, and without knowing too much about how chopping 30 points off speed would impact a build plan... maybe even slightly better tackling/strength in the secondary as well.

It seems that even when people are pressed to find examples of a dot's top speed costing them the play they utterly fail... found plenty of examples of dots standing stationary most of the play, found plenty of examples of dots getting absolutely nowhere near the 160 speed top speed where people claim a slower dot would suffer... I have yet to even be provided a single example of a play where top speed made almost any difference at all.

I was originally under the impression at least a few people had decided to do something even close to my ideas, and failed, otherwise there is NO way 80 seasons went by without someone having their own thought process about the Speed attribute "needing" to be 160.

With extra agility a dot would be able to overcome a speed disadvantage in almost all, if not all, situations where top speed is not met. With extra vision a dot would be drastically less likely to get faked (one of the main reasons I've seen top speed actually come into play : Yes, I watched a bunch of replays before asking for ones that actually supported your brain-washed sheep 160 speed logic) and would be drastically less likely to stand still on running plays (something that if you guys ever cared to watch your own replays you would see is incredibly common on running plays where a player is in zone coverage/qb spy)...which should allow for better overall play...resulting in more plays kept in front of the defender, rather than relying on chasing down plays from behind.

I find it nearly impossible that after all my seasons in peewee and knowing for a fact that a 80 vision 50 speed 50 agility dot outperforms any combination of speed/agility that sacrifices vision... that extra vision wouldn't be beneficial at the top level as well.

I originally thought "maybe vision just needs to be 80 for dots to perform with any brain function" which would mean that my logic of extending vision would NOT transpire to the world league dots... but then I watched actual world league replays, and I found that even with 90+ vision (assumed since I don't have builds but do understand that is more or less the status quo of any "high vision" defender) there are dots standing still for 20+ ticks when in zone coverage.

Then I thought "maybe people just don't really use zone coverage since apparently it just isn't very good (that is more or less true in peewee besides very small zones targeted at very specific routes)" but again, I watched those world league replays and well, plenty of people are out here using zones... and their dots are performing far under my expectation within those zones (one could assume that a level 79 dot would look less lost in a zone than a level 16)...

Also, I have absolutely 0 ability to remain active on this game for 2 years straight without missing enough time to fuck my build over, otherwise I would have acted on this theory many moons ago.

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3016767&pbp_id=1268037

this SS looks like he is shot out of a cannon to make a game saving play

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3022057&pbp_id=53363

this FS seems to react just fine here

you aren't likely to see a WL CB get toasted

look at how WL teams did in National Pro against builds not as good

like this play - the CB doesn't have the speed to keep up

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2996935&pbp_id=327746



a slow LB gets left in the dust

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2996935&pbp_id=328641

Feel free to make a team with 130 speed max lol

Originally posted by madmal
He is NOT in the Sea Wasps Org as he crapped out on us to many times.

He just hasn't changed his avatar for some reason.



so he's not a plant to get everyone to go with lower speed DB's?

Play 1: Thanks for helping me prove my point, shows that agility and vision can make a player play much faster. (I'm guessing this guy has the VA that gives speed+agility+vision boost after a passed vision check, or at least it looks like it to me)

Play 2: Hah, the dude stands still for 5 ticks, more than again proving my point that he could have been notably slower and done the exact same thing, each tick of standing still lost making up for major amounts of speed/agility.

Play 3: This is the weakness that I was expecting, the slant/crossing routes on deep throws would inevitably leave slower defenders chasing a speedier receiver, if it gets completed its nearly a touchdown every time... but wouldn't it be nice if the FS in zone actually, you know, moved toward the wide open receiver rather than standing still guarding nobody the entire play? I get that it seems the zone this guy is in is one that doesn't include the area of the field the receiver gets open in... But, is that because the play is designed assuming zone coverage to be pathetic and incapable of doing what its intended to do here, take the top off the offense? or is the play just poorly designed in general?

Play 4: How slow is that guy? How low is his vision? How low is his agility? Seems like hes a hard hitter LB and probably sacrificed vision for extra Force Fumble chance as well as speed.... these are the types of plays I was looking for, but also the curios part of me watches this and sees that the LB doesn't seem to actually attempt to cover the TE logically right away, his first steps are forward rather than running to gain position on the route, is that because of a failed vision check... or does this simply prove that playing man coverage from the line of scrimmage on a speedy TE with no help over the top is a bad idea... I don't see this truly as opposition to my idea, more just a lesson on how to coach the dots I suggest.

Again, thanks because the Play 3 and Play 4 are the cavets that I personally noticed as well, but to me it is far far far from enough evidence to support nobody even TRYING to use agility/vision + coaching (obviously) to supplement top speed, and create a more capable "shut down defense" that MIGHT be more apt to give up big plays, but would certainly be more capable of shutting down more drives as well.

you could also just swap speed equipment for vision in a pre-season game I guess

Play 2: Hah, the dude stands still for 5 ticks, more than again proving my point that he could have been notably slower and done the exact same thing, each tick of standing still lost making up for major amounts of speed/agility.

he moves once the ball is handed off, but not before since it is in the QB's hands

I would say a 160 spd WR, would not need to get to "top end speed" to get past a 130 speed CB - you would get beat by long passes often. Probobly do fine on shorter passes, but even crosses...once the WR would make the cut they would then seperate from the CB as he goes accross the field.

I dont thin an increase of Vision/Agility can recover that.

And I don't know how many people need to tell me "to build the dots and try it" But I don't intend to invest $1000 in dots that I'm going to fuck up because A) I have no idea how to build long-term dots, and since my build suggestion is drastically more balanced than every guide accounts for I probably would be losing a lot of potential following any guide. B) I don't have the mental fortitude to not randomly disappear for even a full season, much less two years, so I'd have invested that $1000 just to fuck my dots up because of a missed week or two of activity.

Again, thanks because the Play 3 and Play 4 are the cavets that I personally noticed as well, but to me it is far far far from enough evidence to support nobody even TRYING to use agility/vision + coaching (obviously) to supplement top speed, and create a more capable "shut down defense" that MIGHT be more apt to give up big plays, but would certainly be more capable of shutting down more drives as well.

the thing is, there are more interceptions than passing TD's in WL - it is extremely hard to pass - pass defenses are just fine in WL

giving up the big play is what teams try to avoid

Originally posted by reddogrw
Play 2: Hah, the dude stands still for 5 ticks, more than again proving my point that he could have been notably slower and done the exact same thing, each tick of standing still lost making up for major amounts of speed/agility.

he moves once the ball is handed off, but not before since it is in the QB's hands


That is how you perceive it but its not true, it has nothing to do with the handoff exchange, I've seen plays where defenders sit in their zone not reacting to run for 20+ ticks, where the play is quite literally 10 yards down field before they move at all. This is simply a player in zone probably set to bonus to reading the pass who simply takes X amount of ticks to decide to stop running their zone and actually see that it is a run play.

Speed, according to the description and my understanding is mostly responsible for top speed, agility is more responsible for the rate at which they reach top speed. Granted based on the fact that top speed approaching would mean that at any given point a dot is only a %age of their top speed, and if their top speed is lower then while even if that % is higher it could in theory still have them moving slower than the lower % higher top speed player.

I again understand that nobody "thinks" agility and vision can make up for this, but my point is challenging that all of that is based purely on assumption and not actual testing. And while my testing is hard to compare because its on the peewee level, the speed/agility/vision equation is still the same equation... and I've PROVEN beyond the shadow of a doubt that this works on the peewee level.

They don't need to get top speed to get past them, but there is also a "coverage distance" slider, that I am 100% sure is drastically impacted by vision (again testing) but can't be certain that it isnt the "once you get 80 you stop being dumb" or if this actually scales into higher vision numbers.

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver

That is how you perceive it but its not true, it has nothing to do with the handoff exchange, I've seen plays where defenders sit in their zone not reacting to run for 20+ ticks, where the play is quite literally 10 yards down field before they move at all. This is simply a player in zone probably set to bonus to reading the pass who simply takes X amount of ticks to decide to stop running their zone and actually see that it is a run play.

Speed, according to the description and my understanding is mostly responsible for top speed, agility is more responsible for the rate at which they reach top speed. Granted based on the fact that top speed approaching would mean that at any given point a dot is only a %age of their top speed, and if their top speed is lower then while even if that % is higher it could in theory still have them moving slower than the lower % higher top speed player.

I again understand that nobody "thinks" agility and vision can make up for this, but my point is challenging that all of that is based purely on assumption and not actual testing. And while my testing is hard to compare because its on the peewee level, the speed/agility/vision equation is still the same equation... and I've PROVEN beyond the shadow of a doubt that this works on the peewee level.

They don't need to get top speed to get past them, but there is also a "coverage distance" slider, that I am 100% sure is drastically impacted by vision (again testing) but can't be certain that it isnt the "once you get 80 you stop being dumb" or if this actually scales into higher vision numbers.

great - link those please - not saying you are wrong, but the play I showed you that was not the case and the FS made a great play

as far as agility & vision - all these defensive backs and coverage LB's have over 90 in both, so not like they are lacking

defenses are great at covering the pass in WL - more WL interceptions than TD passes, so it's like you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist