Warrior General Games

Originally posted by reddogrw
Again, thanks because the Play 3 and Play 4 are the cavets that I personally noticed as well, but to me it is far far far from enough evidence to support nobody even TRYING to use agility/vision + coaching (obviously) to supplement top speed, and create a more capable "shut down defense" that MIGHT be more apt to give up big plays, but would certainly be more capable of shutting down more drives as well.

the thing is, there are more interceptions than passing TD's in WL - it is extremely hard to pass - pass defenses are just fine in WL

giving up the big play is what teams try to avoid

Yes its hard to pass, I get that, but believe it or not this concept actually applies MORE to the run game than the passing game, remember that in peewee passing is complete ass come playoff time as well... were all just out here trying to not give up the big play on the outside runs... and I've found that with the defenses I run that higher vision does a drastically better job at reducing the number of first downs given up, and whether its better at "not giving up the big play" by just reducing the number of plays it faces... or if its that the vision actually also helps them give up less big plays (even though obviously there is more "potential" based on the lack of speed)...is sort of impossible to decipher. Or maybe its because in peewee were working with much lower stamina and everyone who runs speedy dots drains their stamina more than my slower dots and thats why... its impossible to tell.

I just can't believe in 80 seasons nobody has tried anything like this, and if they haven't I would love for someone to do it, just sadly wont be me.

the INT defensive backs being set to pass focus and the combo/HH defensive backs being set to balanced or run focus also probably has an impact to reaction time

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver
Yes its hard to pass, I get that, but believe it or not this concept actually applies MORE to the run game than the passing game, remember that in peewee passing is complete ass come playoff time as well... were all just out here trying to not give up the big play on the outside runs... and I've found that with the defenses I run that higher vision does a drastically better job at reducing the number of first downs given up, and whether its better at "not giving up the big play" by just reducing the number of plays it faces... or if its that the vision actually also helps them give up less big plays (even though obviously there is more "potential" based on the lack of speed)...is sort of impossible to decipher. Or maybe its because in peewee were working with much lower stamina and everyone who runs speedy dots drains their stamina more than my slower dots and thats why... its impossible to tell.

I just can't believe in 80 seasons nobody has tried anything like this, and if they haven't I would love for someone to do it, just sadly wont be me.

the best place to check is National Pro - that's where you see the effect of fast vs. slow much more - maybe someone there is still making the slow high vision dots

Originally posted by reddogrw
the INT defensive backs being set to pass focus and the combo/HH defensive backs being set to balanced or run focus also probably has an impact to reaction time

Yes, but this again is more to my point than against it. How much vision before that slider set to balanced results in never misdiagnosing a play to the point of peril (such as the LB getting toasted). Its impossible to tell with that replay that the LB can't cover that TE because he seemingly reacts slowly to the pass, again the team that runs that defense probably runs it for a reason and I doubt its because EVERY time they throw to the BTE that he is wide open for a touchdown. My guess is that sometimes he covers it just fine, eventually he gets burned, but as you said, its hard to pass, hurries exist, bad throws exist, and the faster someone is moving the more true that is.

Originally posted by reddogrw
the best place to check is National Pro - that's where you see the effect of fast vs. slow much more - maybe someone there is still making the slow high vision dots

Yes but comparing a dot that is simply lacking points over another is not going to answer my question, of course a dot with less everything is going to do worse, duh.

Considering the reaction I've gotten every time I've ever mentioned this concept to anyone, I'm somehow doubting someone is out there building dots this way already...

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver
Yes but comparing a dot that is simply lacking points over another is not going to answer my question, of course a dot with less everything is going to do worse, duh.

Considering the reaction I've gotten every time I've ever mentioned this concept to anyone, I'm somehow doubting someone is out there building dots this way already...

do you have some examples of slow reacting dots to run plays?

always fun to check this out - especially during pre-season without much else going on

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver


I just can't believe in 80 seasons nobody has tried anything like this, and if they haven't I would love for someone to do it, just sadly wont be me.

So you want someone else to ruin their builds so you can have some sort of comparison? Are you not a DC for a rookie team? It's not too late to have those guys build their CB's like you want.

Originally posted by reddogrw
do you have some examples of slow reacting dots to run plays?

always fun to check this out - especially during pre-season without much else going on


https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3016481&pbp_id=1213567

Legit the first play I opened up... You'll see here that the CBs are seemingly set to cover the flat zones, now, I'm going to offer the benefit of the doubt and say they have the "cover zone immediately" setting on the DAI... and that is why despite the ball having already been handed off they are still traveling to their flat zones. But even so you'll see that 3 ticks pass between arriving in that zone and reacting to the run, when the ball was handed off as many as 10 ticks before.

The idea that this is controlled or even impacted by when the QB hands the ball off seems flawed to me, I'd like to see evidence of Bort saying those words because my years of watching replays has never once lead me to believe that dots reading of plays has anything to do with what is going on...it is simply a passed/failed vision check before each tick. I could be wrong, not denying that at all.

Originally posted by .spider.
...I venture to guess i may have the wildest WL dot and I asked the owner to replace him once we got to WL but he wants to ride it out ....

Don't give away all our secretz!

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3016481&pbp_id=1213567

Legit the first play I opened up... You'll see here that the CBs are seemingly set to cover the flat zones, now, I'm going to offer the benefit of the doubt and say they have the "cover zone immediately" setting on the DAI... and that is why despite the ball having already been handed off they are still traveling to their flat zones. But even so you'll see that 3 ticks pass between arriving in that zone and reacting to the run, when the ball was handed off as many as 10 ticks before.

The idea that this is controlled or even impacted by when the QB hands the ball off seems flawed to me, I'd like to see evidence of Bort saying those words because my years of watching replays has never once lead me to believe that dots reading of plays has anything to do with what is going on...it is simply a passed/failed vision check before each tick. I could be wrong, not denying that at all.

the FS shoots towards the RB once the ball is handed off as does every LB

the CB's on the outside are containing against outside runs and slowly move towards the middle - they are also likely set to pass focus (although the combo CB could be on no focus or run focus), meaning they react slower to run plays, but until the HB heads up the middle they don't know that it isn't an outside run yet

Originally posted by reddogrw
the FS shoots towards the RB once the ball is handed off as does every LB

the CB's on the outside are containing against outside runs and slowly move towards the middle - they are also likely set to pass focus (although the combo CB could be on no focus or run focus), meaning they react slower to run plays, but until the HB heads up the middle they don't know that it isn't an outside run yet



There is no way in this game to "set your CB to contain against the outside run" that logic is something that denies the limitations of the simulation aspect of the game. This is simply one of three things:

A) Zone coverage has a "must first travel to your zone before even attempting to read the play" (possibly influenced by cover zone immediately setting)

or

B) Zone coverage has a notably higher degree of difficulty in passing vision checks to out-right read a play

or

C) Outside defenders have a "containment" AI that stops them from following pursuit angles to prevent ball carriers from bouncing outside

Now, my many years in peewee leads me to believe that C is absolutely and utterly untrue, defenders seem to seek out pursuit angles that avoid blockers, but never once have I seen anything to convince me they "keep containment", but boy would I sure love to have seen that implemented.

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver
There is no way in this game to "set your CB to contain against the outside run" that logic is something that denies the limitations of the simulation aspect of the game. This is simply one of three things:

A) Zone coverage has a "must first travel to your zone before even attempting to read the play" (possibly influenced by cover zone immediately setting)

or

B) Zone coverage has a notably higher degree of difficulty in passing vision checks to out-right read a play

or

C) Outside defenders have a "containment" AI that stops them from following pursuit angles to prevent ball carriers from bouncing outside

Now, my many years in peewee leads me to believe that C is absolutely and utterly untrue, defenders seem to seek out pursuit angles that avoid blockers, but never once have I seen anything to convince me they "keep containment", but boy would I sure love to have seen that implemented.

the outside guys start to move once the runner goes up the middle, but them staying outside on that play isn't a problem for me

the FS and linebackers got in position to make the play as well and all moved the instant the RB got the ball

toss in another replay to analyze - good discussion

Just because it isn't a problem on that particular play for you doesn't make it less proof of what I'm saying.

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3015468&pbp_id=1151156

I look at this play, and its a prime example of how a higher vision total would result in less big plays (potentially more often than it gives them up) the MLB takes his time passing his pursuit angle vision check...allows the HB time to make his way down field and block him, and inevitably misses the tackle.

His 160 speed got him a chance to make the tackle (all be it for a gain of 10 yards) despite his lack of vision clearly costing him an opportunity to be in prime position to make the stop for much less, but the problem was it also opened up a HB getting out in front to block him and ultimately it was probably as much the coming off that block attempt that cost him the missed tackle as it was the missing strength/tackling.

Originally posted by reddogrw
the outside guys start to move once the runner goes up the middle

And also, this is just absolutely untrue, advance the play a single tick at a time, and the runner has committed to the middle of the field LONG before they move anywhere but directly toward the zone they were told to go to.

I am not misunderstanding that this is the INTENTION of the play-call, nor am I knocking the appropriate use of these zones the way the players are built... I'm just offering proof that "when the QB handed the ball off" is not the reason why defenders get frozen in their zones, its is normal operation that has nothing to do with the timing of the ball being handed off.

Also note that even once they FINALLY reach the zone they are being instructed to go to, that they still take a legit pause inside their zone for multiple ticks (and the runner is at this point 2+ yards down field up the middle with defenders on either side of him) before finally passing a vision check to take the appropriate path to cut the runner off for further advancement.