Warrior General Games

Should have been a bathroom related name.

Test game: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1494&mode=pbp

Purposes of test:
Try to gauge how well QBs are leading WRs: Frankly, on the test server sim, I think it is pretty darn good. Most incomplete, non-PDed or KLed passes were because the QB led the WR too much, which should happen too.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325594
It was fairly rare that the WR had to stop and wait for the ball.

Try to gauge how well WRs got open: Very disappointing, IMO. The WR builds on my team (and DBs, since he copied mine) are p damn good. There are 2 pure speed guys: Speed WR1 (Lv. 70 WR)
Strength: 20
Speed: 142 (+42) 146.5 w vets
Agility: 74 77.33 w vets
Jumping: 48
Stamina: 51 (+6)
Vision: 48
Confidence: 35
Catching: 64
Carrying: 40
Route Running: 7
First Step: 14
Quick Cut: 9
Quick: 15
Track Star: 15
Comeback Kid: 15
Sure Hands: 15

typical speedy wr (Lv. 40 WR)
Strength: 25
Speed: 144 (+24) 149.5 w vets
Agility: 80 83.6 w vets
Jumping: 60
Stamina: 40
Vision: 50
Confidence: 50
Catching: 65
Carrying: 50
First Step: 10
Quick Cut: 10
Quick: 15
Track Star: 15

Neither could get a step on the DBs on even a semi consistent basis. That was really sad when covered by the following CB:
Power CB1 (Lv. 70 CB)
Strength: 78 (+18)
Speed: 83 (+15)
Agility: 86 (+12)
Jumping: 60
Stamina: 41 (+1)
Vision: 74
Confidence: 40
Catching: 40
Tackling: 60
Swat Ball: 5
Sticky Hands: 5
Superior Vision: 7
Smooth Operator: 4
Shutdown Coverage: 6
First Step: 4
Change Direction: 4
Monster Hit: 5
David vs Goliath: 15
Helmet Crash: 15
Power Tackler: 15
Sure Tackler: 15

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325491 with 63.5 more speed, 14 1st step and just 8.67 less agility, one would think the WR would get open on a streak

Now, when the QB pump fakes the CB, that’s another story:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325505
and, there were 3 plays when speed appeared to beat the CB deep, though the pass wasn’t completed on 2 of them:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325592
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325608
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325614
but coverage like this was when too frequent, considering the speed WRs’ OMG speed advantage on every DB
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325619


I was also troubled that the fake WR didn’t get open more:
Agile WR1 (Lv. 70 WR)
Strength: 40
Speed: 95 (+18)
Agility: 102 (+25) w vets 105.47
Jumping: 55
Stamina: 50
Vision: 63 (+3)
Confidence: 50
Blocking: 30
Catching: 68
Carrying: 68
Route Running: 10
First Step: 9
Quick Cut: 7
Head Fake: 11
Spin: 7
Juke: 12
Quick: 15
Mr. Reliable: 15
Possession Receiver: 15
Quick Feet: 15
21% fake chance AEQ, 30% from vets

I only noticed one play where he faked a db while running a route:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325495

Try to gauge how many balls were completed in glove like double, trip & quad coverage:
I thought this was fairly reasonable. Sure, a few were completed into those situations, but most weren’t: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325515

As a matter of fact, the PDs/KLs occurred at a respectable rate, even in single coverage:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325517

Try to gauge pass rush:
Considering the builds of 2 of the DEs (and DT) and the LOT/ROT, as well as the # of pass attempts, I think 2 sacks and 2 hurries was p low (in 213 passing attempts). The vast majority of the times, the QB had more than enough time to throw, despite all passes on 3 rd & 4 th being set to WR long.

bu DE (Lv. 40 DE)
Strength: 63
Speed: 122 (+12) 126.95 w vets
Agility: 122 (+12) 126.95 w vets
Jumping: 40
Stamina: 40
Vision: 60
Confidence: 40
Tackling: 53
Swat Ball: 2
Wall: 2
Strong Base: 2
Diving Tackle: 4
First Step: 10
Change Direction: 10
Shed Blocks: 14
Tunnel Vision: 14
Big Sack: 0
Blitz: 4
Superior Vision: 4
Quick: 15
Track Star: 15
Clutch: 15
Jump the Snap: 15
Pass Rusher: 15

bu DE2 (Lv. 40 DE)
Strength: 64
Speed: 122 (+12) 126.95 w vets
Agility: 122 (+12) 126.95 w vets
Jumping: 40
Stamina: 40
Vision: 60
Confidence: 40
Tackling: 47
Swat Ball: 2
Wall: 2
Strong Base: 2
Diving Tackle: 2
First Step: 10
Change Direction: 10
Shed Blocks: 10
Tunnel Vision: 10
Blitz: 4
Quick: 15
Track Star: 15
Heavyweight: 15
Jump the Snap: 15
Pass Rusher: 15
58% brk block AEQ

bu DT (Lv. 40 DT)
Strength: 96
Speed: 83 (+6)
Agility: 123 (+18) 127.73 w vets
Jumping: 40
Stamina: 53 (+3)
Vision: 60
Confidence: 50
Tackling: 68
The Glare: 5
Shed Blocks: 10
Swat Ball: 5
Strong Base: 10
Wall: 6
Break Through: 6
Blitz: 4
First Step: 8
Superior Vision: 4
Quick: 15
Clutch: 15
Jump the Snap: 15
Pass Rusher: 15

Starting LOT1 (Lv. 70 OT) (good, but not as OMG as the DEs)
Strength: 100 (+18)
Speed: 60
Agility: 79 (+11)
Jumping: 10
Stamina: 55
Vision: 60
Confidence: 56 (+1)
Blocking: 90 (+15)
Pass Block: 9
Shock Block: 5
Foundation: 10
Absorb Pain: 5
Protector: 16
Run Block: 2
Great Blocker: 15
Pass Blocker: 15
Outside Blocker: 15
Showboat Blocker: 15

Starting ROT1 (Lv. 70 OT) (good but not OMG)
Strength: 110 (+27)
Speed: 60
Agility: 79 (+9)
Jumping: 10
Stamina: 55
Vision: 60
Confidence: 50
Blocking: 92 (+12)
Pass Block: 9
Run Block: 5
Get Low: 10
Hands: 5
Cut Block: 5
Pancake: 9
Goal Line Blocker: 15
Pass Blocker: 15
Outside Blocker: 15
Showboat Blocker: 15


Sorry about this being so long, and I can’t get this deep in every one, but I wanted to for the first, at least. I already ran a second sim to try to confirm or deny my assertions in this post, but I haven’t had a chance to review it yet

Originally posted by PP
Test game: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1494&mode=pbp

Purposes of test:
Try to gauge how well QBs are leading WRs: Frankly, on the test server sim, I think it is pretty darn good. Most incomplete, non-PDed or KLed passes were because the QB led the WR too much, which should happen too.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325594
It was fairly rare that the WR had to stop and wait for the ball.

Try to gauge how well WRs got open: Very disappointing, IMO. The WR builds on my team (and DBs, since he copied mine) are p damn good. There are 2 pure speed guys: Speed WR1 (Lv. 70 WR)

Read up to this point...

In the replay you already linked, WR2 burnt the CB down the field.

Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by PP

Test game: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1494&mode=pbp

Purposes of test:
Try to gauge how well QBs are leading WRs: Frankly, on the test server sim, I think it is pretty darn good. Most incomplete, non-PDed or KLed passes were because the QB led the WR too much, which should happen too.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325594
It was fairly rare that the WR had to stop and wait for the ball.

Try to gauge how well WRs got open: Very disappointing, IMO. The WR builds on my team (and DBs, since he copied mine) are p damn good. There are 2 pure speed guys: Speed WR1 (Lv. 70 WR)

Read up to this point...

In the replay you already linked, WR2 burnt the CB down the field.

If you go tick by tick, the CB's got a lead until a few ticks after the ball gets cocked back. At release, the WR is just barely ahead of the CB, and the SS is still fully above him. If the QB had waited longer, or if WR2 was the primary, it may have been a good deep ball, but the play didn't develop in time for WR2 to get that burn.

That prompted me to look at the CB's build...is there EQ or something? Because in the summary us normal folks read, his speed and agility are both 74. Which should get burned after a cut.

This isn't a surprise.

CBs haven't needed more than 90 Speed (if built correctly) for a very long time, no matter what WR they are going against.

I mean, I appreciate the test and all, but anyone that has been paying attention has know this for a long time. There is seriously something wrong with WRs.

Originally posted by pottsman
If you go tick by tick, the CB's got a lead until a few ticks after the ball gets cocked back. At release, the WR is just barely ahead of the CB, and the SS is still fully above him. If the QB had waited longer, or if WR2 was the primary, it may have been a good deep ball, but the play didn't develop in time for WR2 to get that burn.

That prompted me to look at the CB's build...is there EQ or something? Because in the summary us normal folks read, his speed and agility are both 74. Which should get burned after a cut.

Bort is working on making EQ show up....The CB's speed/agility are: Speed: 101 (+27)
Agility: 92 (+18), where as the WR's is:Speed: 142 (+42) 146.5 w vets
Agility: 74 77.33 w vets

And, yes DB, I didn't count WRs getting open after the pass was thrown to another. At that point, it just doesn't matter, IMO.

It was news to me, Bukowski, at least when you're talking a 63.5 speed dif, as in one of the plays I linked. Frankly, I do believe that there are serious issues with WRs not getting open (and I know that CBs can nullify a big speed gap...but 63.5 was a surprise, on an 83 speed db), and that is why I wanted to run these tests. I'm trying to gather data to either confirm or deny it. At which point I will present it to Bort and he will do with it as he chooses.

Originally posted by PP
And, yes DB, I didn't count WRs getting open after the pass was thrown to another. At that point, it just doesn't matter, IMO.

So the problem is that the QB is throwing too early?

Also, in the other plays you linked, maybe something is bugged, but that WR is nowhere close to any 145 speed WR's I've seen. I don't know if it was morale, energy, or what...but he is way slower than WRs are on the live server for some reason.

With that said, you can't expect a WR to get wide open after a 10 yard route. The CB starts with a 4-5 yard advantage, there's no way that the WR should be able to burn the CB in that short distance. Football isn't a track meet. Being faster doesn't mean you always win.

I mean, on one of the examples you linked, the WR was wide open.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325614
It was a bad pass, not a WR/CB problem.

Originally posted by Deathblade
So the problem is that the QB is throwing too early?

Also, in the other plays you linked, maybe something is bugged, but that WR is nowhere close to any 145 speed WR's I've seen. I don't know if it was morale, energy, or what...but he is way slower than WRs are on the live server for some reason.

With that said, you can't expect a WR to get wide open after a 10 yard route. The CB starts with a 4-5 yard advantage, there's no way that the WR should be able to burn the CB in that short distance. Football isn't a track meet. Being faster doesn't mean you always win.

I mean, on one of the examples you linked, the WR was wide open.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325614
It was a bad pass, not a WR/CB problem.

As with most anything, I don't think it's any one thing, but a combination of factors. I think the QBs are getting rid of the ball a little too fast (and will run another test with the QB set not to check down and all the way to finish their routes. I also don't think that speed matters enough at WR (sure, they should get a ton of balls KLed and drop passes, but they should also be running wide open a lot more, IMO), fakes for WRs are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy to infrequent, IMO and there aren't any just plain screw ups by the DBs, as happens in real FB (and I know this isn't real. All that said, I feel I need to "prove" these are the cases, at least to the extent that opinions can be proven. On the D side, I was very displeased with the amount of pressure, which would be helped if the QB held the ball longer.

As for the 140+ WRs being slower on the test server, your guess is as good as mine.

And I agree on the linked play. I put that one (and the other 2 in that section) in there to show that the speed WRs are getting open on occassion...and, I agree that the speed guys shouldn't be wide open even 20% of the time on 10 yd routes (although there should be a few times they just blow by them)...That's why I had both of our teams set to pass long to WRs on 3rd and 4th (no punts). That should have provided ample deep passes.

PS...and possession WRs are winning too many rolls and, since I was playing 4-1-6 all game, the completion % was probably a little high

So basically Bort needs to make break block rolls easier and have DB screw up once in a while?

Originally posted by PP
Originally posted by Deathblade

So the problem is that the QB is throwing too early?

Also, in the other plays you linked, maybe something is bugged, but that WR is nowhere close to any 145 speed WR's I've seen. I don't know if it was morale, energy, or what...but he is way slower than WRs are on the live server for some reason.

With that said, you can't expect a WR to get wide open after a 10 yard route. The CB starts with a 4-5 yard advantage, there's no way that the WR should be able to burn the CB in that short distance. Football isn't a track meet. Being faster doesn't mean you always win.

I mean, on one of the examples you linked, the WR was wide open.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1494&pbp_id=325614
It was a bad pass, not a WR/CB problem.

As with most anything, I don't think it's any one thing, but a combination of factors. I think the QBs are getting rid of the ball a little too fast (and will run another test with the QB set not to check down and all the way to finish their routes. I also don't think that speed matters enough at WR (sure, they should get a ton of balls KLed and drop passes, but they should also be running wide open a lot more, IMO), fakes for WRs are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy to infrequent, IMO and there aren't any just plain screw ups by the DBs, as happens in real FB (and I know this isn't real. All that said, I feel I need to "prove" these are the cases, at least to the extent that opinions can be proven. On the D side, I was very displeased with the amount of pressure, which would be helped if the QB held the ball longer.

As for the 140+ WRs being slower on the test server, your guess is as good as mine.

And I agree on the linked play. I put that one (and the other 2 in that section) in there to show that the speed WRs are getting open on occassion...and, I agree that the speed guys shouldn't be wide open even 20% of the time on 10 yd routes (although there should be a few times they just blow by them)...That's why I had both of our teams set to pass long to WRs on 3rd and 4th (no punts). That should have provided ample deep passes.

PS...and possession WRs are winning too many rolls and, since I was playing 4-1-6 all game, the completion % was probably a little high

Thanks for doing the test man, Was old news though tbh.

I wonder if the differential between speed and agility is affecting them. I mean 142 speed and 74 agility is a wide gap, especially since most of the support skills are so low, ie. jumping, vision, confidence, carrying. I would hope level 70's with support skills barely capped, and in some cases not even first capped would blow.

Originally posted by Adderfist
Thanks for doing the test man, Was old news though tbh.

I know it is. Frankly, that's why I'm trying to work in this area. It's one thing to say these things (pass rush needs to be improved/WRs need to get open). Sure, there's a chance something can get changed from that, but doubtful. However, if one can show them in a somewhat controlled environment, it's my hope that it will receive more attention. Frankly, I think we need to focus on the problems we believe exist before focusing on finding new ones....that's my thought, anyway.


Originally posted by Mightyhalo
I wonder if the differential between speed and agility is affecting them. I mean 142 speed and 74 agility is a wide gap, especially since most of the support skills are so low, ie. jumping, vision, confidence, carrying. I would hope level 70's with support skills barely capped, and in some cases not even first capped would blow.



I don't completely disagree with this, but I'd think that the 14 in 1st step would/should do wonders in closing that gap. After all, 1st step is all about hitting top speed faster. Frankly, I think that WR should suck in may ways (ton of balls PDed/KLed/dropped), but he should also be toasting DBs on a fairly regular basis. I also believe that the high agility/fake WRs should be getting open more than in that game (have 2 more games to review before I can pretend to make a definitive statement). If both of those types aren't, everyone may as well just build roll winners from here on out.

I would think the DEs would be better served with some more str but still that is just crazy that DEs with 120/120 in agi/spd can barely get pressure.

thanks PP - be careful - looking behind the curtain may cause you to disappear in the middle of the night!


Agree with what most have said - though it's been known for a long time that WR's can't get open - and that speed isn't working right (either there IS a governor on routes; or CB's are allowed to hold WR's or CB's are getting some crazy speed boost for some unknown reason) - it's still good to see all the builds - and see it discussed.

More evidence (and more of a spotlight on the issue) has just got to force Bort to take a closer look.


Beyond that - the DE's you built are pretty sick - so sad that they aren't getting many pressures on those OT's as they seem to be built about as well as they could be - what's going on there? (obviously it's not news that DE's are broken..)

I remember Hazy's tests showing that a DE needed a 30 point advantage in the main stats to really shine - and that blew the lid off of the DE/OT interaction for a couple weeks - but then we just went back to normal.

Do you have to roll for the AEQ? or do you just get to pick the bonuses you want?