Warrior General Games

Originally posted by cherrie


http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=690575&pbp_id=17769284

Hm, no reason the TE should head downfield so much. They should look to come around and seal the edge as opposed to running 10 yards downfield. One of those things where it would be nice for players to be able to run at a fraction of their top speed. Simply sprinting to his position, then turning the corner and looking for a defender, while casually jogging down the field would be nice. Then, if nothing shows, and the HB yells "go!", like he should in real life, then you take off downfield and look to plant somebody on their ass.

Originally posted by Staz

1. Defenses don't use angles to their advantage, nor do they attack blocks.
-Often times, you'll see a LB come up and take out the FB to clear the way for other defenders to come in and hit the RB. I don't see this in GLB. Yes, players will get hit by the FB, but they don't seem to take him out of the play. I'm talking full force "try to knock him on his ass or take him down" intentions. Could be going for the legs, coming in full force, etc., but I'd like to see some way of making that happen. Could even have a VA to accompany it.


I would rephrase - attacking the block and using it to narrow the field. Many time a ball carrier can just walk near a block. While in RL even when a defender gets blocked he will try to be at an angle that if the HB run close by he could tackle him. Those forcing the HB to cutback (preferably toward the middle of the field).

Originally posted by Staz
I definitely like the idea of "pass" style blocking. Granted, once a blocker gets his hands on the defender, he might try to drive him, but they generally seem to just try and get between the runner and the defender and act as a "shield" of sorts. Pass blocking is similar, so I think a slight tweak to that sort of logic would work effectively. It would also seem to be a great step in the right direction, and would most likely make other updates to open field defender/runner/blocker interactions a little easier to add.

Pass blocking techniques thrives on he fact the the field is crowded. Try to use pass blocking in open field and you will never lay a hand on the defender.
Pass blocking is passive in nature you allow the defender come to you and only adjust your horizontal position to be between him and the QB.
Run blocking in general and open field blocking specifically are aggressive. You must get to the defender and hit him. Even when you seal block you never going passive, you give the defender a first step in just to hit him from the side.

In GLB this goes to what rolls are used for the blocking formula. In run block there is one role to initiate the block, and the you have a hold block role (with pushing/pancake rolls in between). While pass block are more like single hit rolls, and there is no notion of establishing the block. Open field blocking should be like a run block, you need to establish a block (which is much harder), but if made it it is up to the defender to break the block. In open field situation blockers should go to cut block when there is a large risk of failing that initial roll.

Originally posted by tragula
I would rephrase - attacking the block and using it to narrow the field. Many time a ball carrier can just walk near a block. While in RL even when a defender gets blocked he will try to be at an angle that if the HB run close by he could tackle him. Those forcing the HB to cutback (preferably toward the middle of the field).


Such as a DE on the edge keeping his outside shoulder free and "slow playing" an outside run?

Originally posted by tragula
Pass blocking techniques thrives on he fact the the field is crowded. Try to use pass blocking in open field and you will never lay a hand on the defender.
Pass blocking is passive in nature you allow the defender come to you and only adjust your horizontal position to be between him and the QB.
Run blocking in general and open field blocking specifically are aggressive. You must get to the defender and hit him. Even when you seal block you never going passive, you give the defender a first step in just to hit him from the side.


Ah, this is very true. Wasn't quite looking at it like that.

Originally posted by tragula
In GLB this goes to what rolls are used for the blocking formula. In run block there is one role to initiate the block, and the you have a hold block role (with pushing/pancake rolls in between). While pass block are more like single hit rolls, and there is no notion of establishing the block. Open field blocking should be like a run block, you need to establish a block (which is much harder), but if made it it is up to the defender to break the block. In open field situation blockers should go to cut block when there is a large risk of failing that initial roll.

I forget the rules, but isn't it illegal to cut block outside of the tackles?

To cherrie's point, I don't agree that these suggestions would make screens and outside runs completely ineffective. I think there would be less huge plays, but still good chances to get solid yardage depending on your opponent's defense. I think the blockers would still be effective, just not so effective as they are now (pancaking multiple defenders on many plays). I also believe that there is an ability for RB's and blockers to work in harmony on outside runs. This may be a "next step" item but I can point to how QB's and pass blockers work in harmony in the existing AI, so I think it definitely is possible to have RB's using blockers on outside plays in much the same way that QB's do now in the pocket.

It's a well-known fact that screen passes are probably the biggest AI busters in the game today - much like the Strong-I plunge was before some work was done to allow custom defenses and to give a penalty when plays are run multiple times in a row. Maybe you didn't see it so much in your experience in WE AA, but take the word of people here who have seen it in more competitive leagues.

I don't see any need to document these problems yet again with loads of film, since that's been done many times already. What hasn't been done is to find a solution that Bort is willing to implement. That's what I'm focused on doing here - I'm trying to suggest a solution that I believe will be relatively easy for him to implement. I appreciate all of your help in vetting these ideas so we can have a high degree of confidence that these suggested changes will do what we want them to do and won't do something we don't want and didn't anticipate!

Something needs to be done. Unless someone has a better solution, this seems like a step in the right direction.

will read later, this is a very long OP

Originally posted by bamaplaya1
will read later, this is a very long OP

It's worth the read, and I think there are some good follow up post, both by the OP and other users

ok just read it, i really like some of the ideas you have here. it is a well thought out suggestion with several great points. I will be recommending it for epic. good job on this one bro.

This suggestion offers some interesting ideas. The general concept of making it "pass blocking" might not be exactly how I would go about it, but it gives me some ideas anyway. We could try making blocking outside use a new technique of pushing/punching as opposed to the general "latch on and drive" technique. Maybe if the players are in a direct line with the ball carrier, they could latch on, but otherwise try to just push the defender out of the way.

Originally posted by Bort
This suggestion offers some interesting ideas. The general concept of making it "pass blocking" might not be exactly how I would go about it, but it gives me some ideas anyway. We could try making blocking outside use a new technique of pushing/punching as opposed to the general "latch on and drive" technique. Maybe if the players are in a direct line with the ball carrier, they could latch on, but otherwise try to just push the defender out of the way.

It is more about the defender speed vector. If he is running fast, the best thing you can do as a blocker is hit him hard, and just force him to take alonger router to the ball carrier (or fall).
If the defender is slow, you should try to push him back, but if he is too strong for that, then a seal block (latch ?) will just prevent him from getting to the play.

The defenders should be able to counter the latch block. Since they cannot break the block and go around, they should be able to push the blocker to have a better position. Once the ball carrier get pass the block, the defenders can release (or it will be an holding) and tackle him. In an idle sim the ball carrier will see that, and cutback to the middle of the filed, then the outside running game will have a real football look.

Originally posted by Staz
I forget the rules, but isn't it illegal to cut block outside of the tackles?


You are right, my bad. What I wanted to say is : In open field situation blockers should go to a big hit (trying to make the defender fall, or just push him far from the play) when there is a large risk of failing that initial roll.

Originally posted by tragula
You are right, my bad. What I wanted to say is : In open field situation blockers should go to a big hit (trying to make the defender fall, or just push him far from the play) when there is a large risk of failing that initial roll.



Agreed. While blocking, in general, is tougher in open space, you see a lot more crack blocks in which the defender is planted on his ass.

I agree with Bort thinking of a "push/punch" type blocking instead of simple pass block. I'll watch the game tonight and see if I can figure out a way to explain open field blocking. For some reason it just isn't clicking in my head.


I blame the cold I have.

If you check the change log "current projects", it seems that open field blocking has become a priority.