Warrior General Games

This has been posted on the test server for Bort to see (he was aware that I was running these tests).

Because of a large thread concerned with pass rush effectiveness, primarily the DE vs OT matchups, I decided to run some tests to see if there was a legitimate problem. To start out with, I ran a series of test sims with the OT's and the DE's having identical builds. Their builds were as follows:

Strength 70
Speed 70
Agility 70
Jumping 40
Stamina 40
Vision 40
Confidence 40
Blocking 70
+pass block
No SA's/VA's assigned

Strength 70
Speed 70
Agility 70
Jumping 40
Stamina 40
Vision 40
Confidence 40
Blocking 30
Tackling 70
+pass rush
Combo
No SA's/VA's assigned

I used a basic AI with every play available in the playbook. The AI settings for both offense and defense were as follows:

100% Pass
20 Short 50 Medium 30 Long
50 WR 30 TE 5 FB 15 HB
TE Run Route 100
HB Block 50
FB Block 75

4-3 Base
50% Blitz
50 Run 50 Pass
25 Zone 75 Man
30 Short 40 Medium 30 Long

The results for the initial run were very disappointing. In the 10 games, between the 8 DE's, there was a total of 7 sacks and 61 hurries. Players of identical attributes should be able to get more sacks than that. This pace would lead to a DE getting an average of 1.51 sacks over a 750 play season.

I increased the speed, agility, and strength of the DE's to 85 and ran 10 more games. The number of hurries more than doubled as did the sacks, but there was still only 17 sacks and 141 hurries in 10 games. This pace would lead to a DE getting an average of 3.62 sacks over a 750 play season. With a +15 advantage in speed, agility, and strength, you would figure that there would be a bigger edge but the truth of the matter is that the OL still held the advantage.

I increased the speed, agility, and strength another 15 more to 100 each, making them now 30 higher than that of the OT's. Finally, there was adequate pressure in both sacks and hurries. There was a total of 68 sacks and 186 hurries in the 10 games. This pace would lead to a DE getting an average of 14.23 sacks over a 750 play season. Kind of sad, to be honest, that it would take a +30 advantage in speed, agility, and strength to get a DE capable of averaging about one sack a game. That in itself is proof that there is a problem with the way pass rushing and DE vs OT matchups are working.

Data for the three test sims can be found here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p7MjmCv6q4zbavq2Yha-fdA

I think a big part of the problem is the tackles back up too well - if someone's back pedaling, they shouldn't be able to back pedal five yards and not get knocked over or beat on the edge occasionally. The following is a good example of what I'm talking about:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=796&pbp_id=189849

The tackles are much too good at sealing off the DE's and the DE's aren't good enough at making moves around the tackle when there are holes to attack.

Another problem I think is that the QB's are getting rid of the ball too quickly - I'm not sure if that's a matter of vision working too well or if it's a function of the way the passing game is coded. The following play is a good example of what I'm talking about:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803&pbp_id=191203

In that play, the defense doesn't even get a chance to get any pressure because the QB gets the ball off in under 2 seconds. I'm not sure a QB can backpedal like that and get a throw off. Is there a way you can make the QB come to a stop before getting the throw off? That would be more realistic (and if they sense hurry pressure after stopping, then they could move around and you could use various attributes to determine that behavior)

Conclusion - something needs to be done. I don't know exactly what but maybe some increases in DE effectiveness or reducing the effectiveness of OT's would be a good start.

Thanks Hazy, there definitely needs to be a change. It's unrealistic and unfair for a DE to need 100 speed, 100 strength and 100 agility to be able to beat an OL with an above average build. Hopefully Bort will take notice of this.

Hazy, thank you very much for taking on this task. The results speak for themselves.

Really appreciate you looking into this so closely Hazy

Originally posted by thehazyone

Another problem I think is that the QB's are getting rid of the ball too quickly - I'm not sure if that's a matter of vision working too well or if it's a function of the way the passing game is coded. The following play is a good example of what I'm talking about:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803&pbp_id=191203

In that play, the defense doesn't even get a chance to get any pressure because the QB gets the ball off in under 2 seconds. I'm not sure a QB can backpedal like that and get a throw off. Is there a way you can make the QB come to a stop before getting the throw off? That would be more realistic (and if they sense hurry pressure after stopping, then they could move around and you could use various attributes to determine that behavior)

Conclusion - something needs to be done. I don't know exactly what but maybe some increases in DE effectiveness or reducing the effectiveness of OT's would be a good start.

The QB backpedals faster than the D-line advances. There could have been no O-line at all on that play, and it would not have even been a hurry.

thank hazy, the results don't lie and it really helps to get these on the test server and not just in some thread in the GLB forum.

You are the man hazy.

Do you guys hear that?
that is silence from the OT side

thank you very much for providing the undeniable proof that DE are pretty broken

omg thank you so much

Thank you. Please let DE's be at least relevant again. They don't deserve to all be eunuchs.

Originally posted by iMan
Do you guys hear that?
that is silence from the OT side

thank you very much for providing the undeniable proof that DE are pretty broken

Nah, the OTs are asleep after eating at the All You Can Eat Buffets because they don't have to worry about keeping in shape because all DEs are neutered. But they'll be here eventually.

From the test server:

Originally posted by Bort
Some notes I would like to add for consideration as we work/re-look at this:

- I was actually toying with the idea a while back of having blockers have the ability to go the wrong way when trying to cut off a player, or to fall off balance on their own if they needed to make a quick move back over at more than 100 degrees or so. Nobody really seemed to like the idea so I ditched it.

- I can very easily play with the radius for avoidance on elusive pass rush to try different settings, to make the "corner" bigger or smaller.

- I have also thought at times of adding some sort of "is_backpedaling" flag to pass blockers, which would give them a penalty to blocking when backing up.

- Most people have seemed to want us to "let the builds sort it out."

Originally posted by thehazyone
normally I'd agree with letting builds sort it out, but when it takes a 30 difference in three key attributes to become a 15 sack a season pass rusher, then I think some other things need to happen.

I like the ideas you mention - something tautology mentioned too is that the QB backpedals very fast - is there a way you can slow that down?

Thanks, i hope Bort looks at these results

You posted when i was typing.

I hope he makes some changes to it. Just help out the DE's.

He already has.

this is the most epic thread ever. i love you hazy