Warrior General Games

Originally posted by sjmay
Rage,

Except they aren't just testing that,

They are testing to see if outrageous builds will end up busting the code, that is a part of testing as well.



Have outrageous builds in your sample set. That is what part of the testing should include.

What happens when a
125 speed, 90 agility, 30 strength, 48 vision, 40 stamina, 25 confidence DE faces a 80 strength, 80 blocking, 75 agility, 55 speed OT.

Run SIM: Are the results from passing and running game what Bort wants out of them? (If yes)
Run exact same SIM 5 times: Does it always provide an acceptable result and is there some amount of variation? (If yes) no changes are needed in OT/DE interaction as a result of this SIM.

If NO - then change the code and run the same SIM over again.

If code is changed due to other interactions (for instance 110 agility, 90 speed, 70 strength DE vs. 75 strength, 90 blocking, 80 agility, 64 speed OT) then you have to run the SIM with the imbalanced builds again.

You don't keep creating new players and new builds to test. You have 200 teams that make up 100 matchups. These teams play each other every game as you try to get the SIM to where you are happy with the results of every matchup over the course of multiple games.

It would be very boring, tedious work, but I think that is the type of testing that is needed.

Not a bad idea, you should PM Tpat with it and let him take it to whoever, while Mike is recovering.

Originally posted by Signalsgt


Wouldn't you have to factor in confidence as well? I like the idea for this test, but say someone on the 40 stamina team starts getting worn down and begins to drop passes/miss tackles etc. That causes their Confidence to drop and exhaserbates the problem leading to more dropped passes/missed tackles.

Anyone going to bother to answer this or just glaze over it and burn cycles for a useless data set.?

Trolltron

Originally posted by Signalsgt
Originally posted by Signalsgt



Wouldn't you have to factor in confidence as well? I like the idea for this test, but say someone on the 40 stamina team starts getting worn down and begins to drop passes/miss tackles etc. That causes their Confidence to drop and exhaserbates the problem leading to more dropped passes/missed tackles.

Anyone going to bother to answer this or just glaze over it and burn cycles for a useless data set.?




It is definitely relevant. So I am sure it will get overlooked.

Testing stamina is something we could look at and since confidence does the same sort of thing as stamina we would definitely factor that in. Right now I am trying to petition bort to set up someone to systematize and organize our testing a little better than it currently is, which at some point may include user input as far as what we test. We want to avoid requests like "can you tell me how much stamina I need to end with 70 energy each game" and focus more on requests about whether things (like stamina) are really working the way they should.

Originally posted by tpaterniti
Testing stamina is something we could look at and since confidence does the same sort of thing as stamina we would definitely factor that in. Right now I am trying to petition bort to set up someone to systematize and organize our testing a little better than it currently is, which at some point may include user input as far as what we test. We want to avoid requests like "can you tell me how much stamina I need to end with 70 energy each game" and focus more on requests about whether things (like stamina) are really working the way they should.

Another thing I would like to see is instead of testing for something like "how much vision does a QB need to throw to the proper receiver". I would rather Bort define what % of the time he expects a QB with 95, 85, 75, 65, 55 vision and 65 confidence to do things like

1. Hit an open WR a few yards short of 1st down marker rather than throwing to a double covered WR 5 yards past the first down marker

2. What % of time he expects the QB to throw the ball to the primary target, regardless of defensive coverage

3. How well he expects QB to recognize a blitz and prepared to dump off based on QBs individual settings


You don't have to make QBs that other players would use. You could have 40 throwing 40 strength on all of them. Make the builds crappy so it doesn't appear you are trying to find a max build with compared attributes. (If you gave all the QBs 90 throwing it would look bad and you aren't looking for completion %. You are looking at QB decision making)

Set up defenses to intentionally leave receivers open on a good % of plays. You can even do things like have QB kneel on 1st and 2nd down. Then call offensive plays on 3rd and 4th where HB, FB, or TE runs a short route and primary receiver is a WR or TE running a deep route past the first down marker. Set defensive AI so that defense does not cover the receiver running the short route and there is a decent blitz.

Document how all the QBs do in these situations. Then present the results to Bort and ideally there would be a way to show the rest of the community.

Bort then decides if he needs to change the code based off those results and would have a better idea of what he needed to change. Does he need to up the % of one factor in decision making and decrease another? Does he need to add a factor or remove one? Does he need to increase or decrease the effects of vision?

Originally posted by some anonymous tester

Originally posted by Tester
I'm actually okay with increasing the difficulty the more you broke, but it shouldn't even have an effect until 2-3 have been broken, and should only have a big effect after 4-5. The limiter per tick probably shouldn't even be used, as it's more common than one thinks that two people get a shot at once.

What I would suggest (because I want to help safeties, as they need to have a ton in Speed, unlike LB's) would be to make the Wrap-Up Tackle and Diving Tackle SA's work better. Without a good AE roll, only safeties can get Wrap-Up Tackle, which is what most tackles are, and if you increased that SA's effect you'll be helping safeties keep the play in hand a lot.


this is from the test blog - frankly I'm concerned about the quality of the advice being offered up - the stuff about how stamina shouldn't be an issue until 4-5 tackles are broken, and how there shouldn't be a limit on # of tackles broken in one tick are really reflective of a lack of understanding of football, at least from inside the helmet.

Depending on many dynamics of the attempted tackle, each broken tackle *could* be a decent stamina hit. And while it could be possible to lower the shoulder or use leg drive or whatever to break two attempted tackles simultaneously, this would be rare, and it should be impossible for a couple of different "break tackle" SAs to trigger at the same time, because they are supposed to represent very different physical actions.

Originally posted by OttawaShane
Originally posted by some anonymous tester


Originally posted by Tester
I'm actually okay with increasing the difficulty the more you broke, but it shouldn't even have an effect until 2-3 have been broken, and should only have a big effect after 4-5. The limiter per tick probably shouldn't even be used, as it's more common than one thinks that two people get a shot at once.

What I would suggest (because I want to help safeties, as they need to have a ton in Speed, unlike LB's) would be to make the Wrap-Up Tackle and Diving Tackle SA's work better. Without a good AE roll, only safeties can get Wrap-Up Tackle, which is what most tackles are, and if you increased that SA's effect you'll be helping safeties keep the play in hand a lot.


this is from the test blog - frankly I'm concerned about the quality of the advice being offered up - the stuff about how stamina shouldn't be an issue until 4-5 tackles are broken, and how there shouldn't be a limit on # of tackles broken in one tick are really reflective of a lack of understanding of football, at least from inside the helmet.

Depending on many dynamics of the attempted tackle, each broken tackle *could* be a decent stamina hit. And while it could be possible to lower the shoulder or use leg drive or whatever to break two attempted tackles simultaneously, this would be rare, and it should be impossible for a couple of different "break tackle" SAs to trigger at the same time, because they are supposed to represent very different physical actions.





Agreed. Should, at the very least, be tiered based on the style of tackling used. Wrap-Up wouldn't take as much out of a HB as Balanced, and Power should give them a nice gut-check even if they fail the tackle.

Originally posted by PhoenixSunrise
Originally posted by OttawaShane

Originally posted by some anonymous tester



Originally posted by Tester
I'm actually okay with increasing the difficulty the more you broke, but it shouldn't even have an effect until 2-3 have been broken, and should only have a big effect after 4-5. The limiter per tick probably shouldn't even be used, as it's more common than one thinks that two people get a shot at once.

What I would suggest (because I want to help safeties, as they need to have a ton in Speed, unlike LB's) would be to make the Wrap-Up Tackle and Diving Tackle SA's work better. Without a good AE roll, only safeties can get Wrap-Up Tackle, which is what most tackles are, and if you increased that SA's effect you'll be helping safeties keep the play in hand a lot.


this is from the test blog - frankly I'm concerned about the quality of the advice being offered up - the stuff about how stamina shouldn't be an issue until 4-5 tackles are broken, and how there shouldn't be a limit on # of tackles broken in one tick are really reflective of a lack of understanding of football, at least from inside the helmet.

Depending on many dynamics of the attempted tackle, each broken tackle *could* be a decent stamina hit. And while it could be possible to lower the shoulder or use leg drive or whatever to break two attempted tackles simultaneously, this would be rare, and it should be impossible for a couple of different "break tackle" SAs to trigger at the same time, because they are supposed to represent very different physical actions.





Agreed. Should, at the very least, be tiered based on the style of tackling used. Wrap-Up wouldn't take as much out of a HB as Balanced, and Power should give them a nice gut-check even if they fail the tackle.

That makes perfect sense. I'd appreciate some tester feedback on this.

Hell I like the idea, too. Wrap-Up or Power taking away different levels of energy, it makes sense for sure.

Originally posted by tpaterniti
Testing stamina is something we could look at...

I can honestly say that I don't believe any of the testers are capable of producing tests that would find out anything worthwhile about stamina.

Originally posted by Malachorn
Originally posted by tpaterniti

Testing stamina is something we could look at...

I can honestly say that I don't believe any of the testers are capable of producing tests that would find out anything worthwhile about stamina.

Viking ran one good test with a good write up, after that nothing.

I agree with you since the tester I was working with is 16 years old dealing with "life stresses" right now.

It's a complete joke.

Originally posted by Signalsgt
Originally posted by Malachorn

Originally posted by tpaterniti


Testing stamina is something we could look at...

I can honestly say that I don't believe any of the testers are capable of producing tests that would find out anything worthwhile about stamina.

Viking ran one good test with a good write up, after that nothing.

I agree with you since the tester I was working with is 16 years old dealing with "life stresses" right now.

It's a complete joke.

Well, even clueless people could be led by Bort to look at and report certain things and show themselves worthwhile with some kind of tests... but something like stamina? I'm very certain that none of these testers would be capable of performing worthwhile tests about stamina, despite what tpat suggests.

I bet if you took all the actual tester disclosure posts from the 40 page tester disclosure thread the whole thing would fit neatly on one page.

I realize the irony of making a useless post to complain about a useless thread.