Warrior General Games

Punt Hang Time
I made a note at the end of my kickoff coding suggestion about the punt hang time being all wonky, so basically my suggestion is that punts in GLB need to hang in the air longer – much longer. In fact, GLB punts are about half the average hang time and double the horizontal velocity as punts in real football.

Originally posted by saintedix

P.S. ON PUNTING
When I was timing kickoffs, I was also timing punts. The average NFL punt hang time is 4.6s. The average GLB punt? A whopping 2.2s. How do you screw that up? A few punts even traveled 65+ yards in 1.9-2.1s. To give perspective on this, that’s nearly equivalent to a baseball player throwing home from the outfield (time, trajectory, and speed). How this has been acceptable for so long makes less sense than Bryant Gumbel still holding a broadcasting job.


Now, there are going to be some issues if you simply change the hang time and speed given that the punt coding isn’t perfect, but this is something that needs to be tested on the test server so that adjustments can be made to make punts more realistic. Returners should also leave very short kicks to bounce (see bouncing later), as you might see in real football, often times the returner waves off the punt and just lets it bounce.

Test results for punt time are shown at the bottom of the OP.

Returner Maneuverability
Returners simply don’t move side-to-side to avoid tacklers on punt or kick returns (if fact, this is a problem with all of GLB, but I’m only addressing returns here). Tell me the last time you saw anything remotely close to this in GLB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJAlcMyVsdI&feature=related

Instead, GLB returners run headstrong into tacklers at full speed:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1416670&pbp_id=11425524

There needs to be some work done on the pathing for return men to try and find more daylight by moving side-to-side or even reversing field. This is very common IRL, and players often even lose yardage, but it needs to be there. It will add a little more spice to returns when a returner actually has to find a path to the end zone instead of running in a straight line (maybe actually make “super elusive” do this).

Punt Return Formation
The punt return blocking as it stands now is pretty good actually. There will have to be adjustments made if/when the hang time is increased. IMO, there needs to be more “chip” blocks or push blocks while players are in motion to simulate a more real blocking environment, especially on the gunners. The gunner blocking will need some serious looks if the snap and hang time are increased.

One big thing that would address this is to make the "standard" punt return formation include two blockers on the gunners (this is, in fact, pretty standard in real football). This would give the gunners a much more difficult time getting downfield with the increased snap/hang time. You could also just program PP1 and PP2 to set up blocks in front of the returner similar to the wedge coding suggested in my kickoff thread, which would keep it from being a fair catch too often:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4312920

Punt Blocks
There needs to be a way to block punts (and field goals for that matter). This can’t be too difficult to figure out, considering there is already code in place for defensive linemen to knock down QB passes – a similar code could be used for players who break through the line. There could also be VAs or SAs for STOPs that assist in this. Basically, there should be vision checks all along the offensive line to make sure everyone is picked up (often times punt blocks are the direct result of a blocking assignment going wrong).

This also goes hand in hand with the next topic:

Snaps from the Center
In GLB, from the time the ball is snapped to the time the punt is kicked is roughly 1 second. Real football? Anywhere between 2-2.5s. Increasing the snap time and time needed for the punter to get the ball away allows more time for defenders to get in for blocks, and causes a more realistic punt coverage where guys actually have to block for an extended period of time before sprinting downfield (this is actually handled pretty well in GLB as it is).

Punt Return AI
When ST-AI is introduced, allow the return team to choose between Punt Block and Punt Return (maybe variations of each). The offensive alignment would adjust based on the return team (or have a checkbox in the ST-AI that allows the punt team to ignore the return team’s alignment). This would allow people to be more aggressive to block kicks while sacrificing punt coverage. May be useful for teams with poor returners or poor blocking.

Punt Bouncing
Punts should bounce a random direction when they hit the ground. This would allow for the punts inside the 20 to have a chance to bounce sideways or backwards ("pooch" punting). Simply make punts bounce 65% forward, 10% left, 10% right, 15% backwards (or something like this). There could be punter SAs or VAs that affect these percentages, etc.

TEST RESULTS
All results were timed twice with a stopwatch and the average time between the two was used (for NFL punts, I used DVR on timed punts). The difference is clear, see for yourself:
GLB
Hang Time – Distance (yd) – Vx (ft/s) – Vx (mph)
2.09 – 67 – 96.17 – 65.57
2.34 – 57 – 73.08 – 49.8
1.66 – 49 – 88.55 – 60.38
2.37 – 58 – 73.41 – 50.05
3.26 – 48 – 44.17 – 30.11
1.76 – 50 – 85.23 – 58.11
2.10 – 62 – 92.53 – 63.09
(only first 7 of 30 test results shown)
GLB Avg. : 2.18 – 58 – 79.82 – 54.41

NFL
Hang Time – Distance (yd) – Vx (ft/s) – Vx (mph)
4.76 – 62 – 39.07 – 26.64
4.43 – 59 – 39.95 – 27.24
4.15 – 61 – 44.10 – 30.06
4.57 – 55 – 36.11 – 24.62
4.82 – 67 – 41.70 – 28.43
4.61 – 49 – 31.88 – 21.74
NFL Avg.: 4.56 – 58.83 – 38.80 – 26.45 (real NFL average is appx 4.6 sec, so I think these numbers are relatively accurate)

Go ahead and time them yourself if you want to, even college is just about the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPXSzia2Zfg
Results: 3.88 – 52 – 40.2 – 27.4

ugh why did you have to put that UT clip in there? (big UT fan hated that whole game and especially that play)

Okay so that was completely unrelated to the OP but now I'll actually respond:

This all looks like good stuff, however, with the unrealistic speed players already have, that much hangtime wouldn't work. The Punt team is already past the return teams blockers and on a bead to the ball carrier as it is if you doubled the hangtime the returner would never get a chance to have a return. It would pretty much be an automatic fair catch.

Originally posted by Pook

This all looks like good stuff, however, with the unrealistic speed players already have, that much hangtime wouldn't work. The Punt team is already past the return teams blockers and on a bead to the ball carrier as it is if you doubled the hangtime the returner would never get a chance to have a return. It would pretty much be an automatic fair catch.

I think something like 20-25% of punts in the NFL that are in bounds are fair catches anyway. But I know what you are saying. That's why I said there needs to be some work on the gunner blocking, especially if hang time is doubled. Something needs to be done though about hang time, because punters are kicking bee-bees down the field.

I've updated the OP with possible ways to address this:

Originally posted by saintedix

Punt Return Formation
The punt return blocking as it stands now is pretty good actually. There will have to be adjustments made if/when the hang time is increased. IMO, there needs to be more “chip” blocks or push blocks while players are in motion to simulate a more real blocking environment, especially on the gunners. The gunner blocking will need some serious looks if the snap and hang time are increased.

One big thing that would address this is to make the "standard" punt return formation include two blockers on the gunners (this is, in fact, pretty standard in real football). This would give the gunners a much more difficult time getting downfield with the increased snap/hang time. You could also just program PP1 and PP2 to set up blocks in front of the returner similar to the wedge coding suggested in my kickoff thread, which would keep it from being a fair catch too often:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4312920

Originally posted by saintedix

I think something like 20-25% of punts in the NFL that are in bounds are fair catches anyway



and 20-25% would be fine here as well, even a higher percentage but if they weren't able to fix the blocking then the added hang time would make it closer to 99% fair catch but there are definitely ways to fix the blocking and formations. I do agree that ST's need to be fixed, punt more so than kickoff.

I realize you are basing the comparison against realistic football and real life and should make sense. Unfortunately players in GLB are extremely unrealistic in how they are generally built.

I do agree with some of the suggestions, punt snap to the actual punt taking longer so there might be a chance for blocks, more line interaction, better AI etc. There should be more line interaction and not just a snap and the SE's tear assing down field at the return guy before anyone else moves.

However as i said, the issue that prevents making punt hang time "realistic" is the fact that players are unrealistically fast in GLB. If you made punt hang time as long as it is in say.. the NFL or college, we would end up with every punt being a fair catch. Unless player attributes are adjusted in the future (as some discussion on it has taken place) there is little you can do in this area while you have STOP's with speeds from VA's/SA's reaching probably 160+ in speed.

ST AI overall needs a huge overhaul. Punt returners who catch the ball on the sidelines are, by the way it's coded right now, incapable of breaking inside. Unless they catch the ball inside the hash marks their logic is- Avoid tackles and move to within 1-2 yards of the sidelines and then run straight down the field. It doesn't matter if the rest of the field is empty of players and they have 11 guys coming in a train right at them, they will run straight ahead.

Having the wedges in kickoffs not behaving "intelligently" where they just take off at full speed without regard for the returner. This then often leaves them way out of position to protect the return man, and in addition with the way they choose targets, they won't pick an open OU2 to block because he's further away from the IN guy they are going to double team.

Overall ST need attention, i just don't think it will get it any time soon unfortunately.

Originally posted by saintedix
Originally posted by Pook


This all looks like good stuff, however, with the unrealistic speed players already have, that much hangtime wouldn't work. The Punt team is already past the return teams blockers and on a bead to the ball carrier as it is if you doubled the hangtime the returner would never get a chance to have a return. It would pretty much be an automatic fair catch.

I think something like 20-25% of punts in the NFL that are in bounds are fair catches anyway. But I know what you are saying. That's why I said there needs to be some work on the gunner blocking, especially if hang time is doubled. Something needs to be done though about hang time, because punters are kicking bee-bees down the field.

I've updated the OP with possible ways to address this:

Originally posted by saintedix


Punt Return Formation
The punt return blocking as it stands now is pretty good actually. There will have to be adjustments made if/when the hang time is increased. IMO, there needs to be more “chip” blocks or push blocks while players are in motion to simulate a more real blocking environment, especially on the gunners. The gunner blocking will need some serious looks if the snap and hang time are increased.

One big thing that would address this is to make the "standard" punt return formation include two blockers on the gunners (this is, in fact, pretty standard in real football). This would give the gunners a much more difficult time getting downfield with the increased snap/hang time. You could also just program PP1 and PP2 to set up blocks in front of the returner similar to the wedge coding suggested in my kickoff thread, which would keep it from being a fair catch too often:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4312920


Worth mentioning concerning the NFL so far this season:

973 Punts
8 Blocked
80 Touchbacks
202 Fair catches
only 469 Returns
only 5 of those were for TDs

Of course it is also worth mentioning that I don't understand why we are too worried about reality when I see WL QB's have 9 QB's pass for over 5k when only Drew Brees has done it since 2002 and don't even get me started as to how many have done it all time. Should we talk about sacks? If those are brought up, it is said that this is not real life... I guess not then. It is always said this game is supposed to be fun. I wonder what it is about the NFL that is so not fun yet has Americans so entranced every weekend of the fall and into the winter?

Originally posted by saintedix
Now, there are going to be some issues if you simply change the hang time and speed given that the punt coding isn’t perfect, but this is something that needs to be tested on the test server so that adjustments can be made to make punts more realistic. Returners should also leave very short kicks to bounce (see bouncing later), as you might see in real football, often times the returner waves off the punt and just lets it bounce.

Test results for punt time are shown at the bottom of the OP.

Returner Maneuverability
Returners simply don’t move side-to-side to avoid tacklers on punt or kick returns (if fact, this is a problem with all of GLB, but I’m only addressing returns here). Tell me the last time you saw anything remotely close to this in GLB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJAlcMyVsdI&feature=related

Instead, GLB returners run headstrong into tacklers at full speed:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1416670&pbp_id=11425524

There needs to be some work done on the pathing for return men to try and find more daylight by moving side-to-side or even reversing field. This is very common IRL, and players often even lose yardage, but it needs to be there. It will add a little more spice to returns when a returner actually has to find a path to the end zone instead of running in a straight line (maybe actually make “super elusive” do this).

Punt Return Formation
The punt return blocking as it stands now is pretty good actually. There will have to be adjustments made if/when the hang time is increased. IMO, there needs to be more “chip” blocks or push blocks while players are in motion to simulate a more real blocking environment, especially on the gunners. The gunner blocking will need some serious looks if the snap and hang time are increased.

One big thing that would address this is to make the "standard" punt return formation include two blockers on the gunners (this is, in fact, pretty standard in real football). This would give the gunners a much more difficult time getting downfield with the increased snap/hang time. You could also just program PP1 and PP2 to set up blocks in front of the returner similar to the wedge coding suggested in my kickoff thread, which would keep it from being a fair catch too often:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4312920

Punt Blocks
There needs to be a way to block punts (and field goals for that matter). This can’t be too difficult to figure out, considering there is already code in place for defensive linemen to knock down QB passes – a similar code could be used for players who break through the line. There could also be VAs or SAs for STOPs that assist in this. Basically, there should be vision checks all along the offensive line to make sure everyone is picked up (often times punt blocks are the direct result of a blocking assignment going wrong).

This also goes hand in hand with the next topic:

Snaps from the Center
In GLB, from the time the ball is snapped to the time the punt is kicked is roughly 1 second. Real football? Anywhere between 2-2.5s. Increasing the snap time and time needed for the punter to get the ball away allows more time for defenders to get in for blocks, and causes a more realistic punt coverage where guys actually have to block for an extended period of time before sprinting downfield (this is actually handled pretty well in GLB as it is).

Punt Return AI
When ST-AI is introduced, allow the return team to choose between Punt Block and Punt Return (maybe variations of each). The offensive alignment would adjust based on the return team (or have a checkbox in the ST-AI that allows the punt team to ignore the return team’s alignment). This would allow people to be more aggressive to block kicks while sacrificing punt coverage. May be useful for teams with poor returners or poor blocking.

Punt Bouncing
Punts should bounce a random direction when they hit the ground. This would allow for the punts inside the 20 to have a chance to bounce sideways or backwards ("pooch" punting). Simply make punts bounce 65% forward, 10% left, 10% right, 15% backwards (or something like this). There could be punter SAs or VAs that affect these percentages, etc.

TEST RESULTS
All results were timed twice with a stopwatch and the average time between the two was used (for NFL punts, I used DVR on timed punts). The difference is clear, see for yourself:
GLB
Hang Time – Distance (yd) – Vx (ft/s) – Vx (mph)
2.09 – 67 – 96.17 – 65.57
2.34 – 57 – 73.08 – 49.8
1.66 – 49 – 88.55 – 60.38
2.37 – 58 – 73.41 – 50.05
3.26 – 48 – 44.17 – 30.11
1.76 – 50 – 85.23 – 58.11
2.10 – 62 – 92.53 – 63.09
(only first 7 of 30 test results shown)
GLB Avg. : 2.18 – 58 – 79.82 – 54.41

NFL
Hang Time – Distance (yd) – Vx (ft/s) – Vx (mph)
4.76 – 62 – 39.07 – 26.64
4.43 – 59 – 39.95 – 27.24
4.15 – 61 – 44.10 – 30.06
4.57 – 55 – 36.11 – 24.62
4.82 – 67 – 41.70 – 28.43
4.61 – 49 – 31.88 – 21.74
NFL Avg.: 4.56 – 58.83 – 38.80 – 26.45 (real NFL average is appx 4.6 sec, so I think these numbers are relatively accurate)

Go ahead and time them yourself if you want to, even college is just about the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPXSzia2Zfg
Results: 3.88 – 52 – 40.2 – 27.4



GOOD LUCK GETTING ANYONE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS. BORT IS BUSY WORKING ON HIS BASEBALL SIM AND HAS FORGOTTEN TO COMPLETE A FULL GAME OF REAL FOOTBALL.

all of your suggestions are valid +1

Originally posted by jdbolick


I join in the applause.

i'm with ya there "kin's" ..... +1

i understand this is just a game...but a bit reality goes far ...
there is some trueism on that GLB gets kinda ridiculous on the builds...so it is tuff to compare the two...(sim vs. real)
tbh ... i think there should be more checks/balances to builds... ex.... (one player has soo much speed...yeah hes fast but is gonna make the play???
.... chances not.. -real life-) ... seams no matter ..first one there ...make's a play... ... lol ...
ultimatlly...idk...read the tag...

i suggested a back spin SA a long time ago, i no longer have an active P but i still support the idea along with the rest of this.

It's actually called a "rugby kick", and I think you lose a little yardage as a result, BUT your coffin corners are far less likely to go for touchbacks.

Originally posted by saintedix
Snaps from the Center
In GLB, from the time the ball is snapped to the time the punt is kicked is roughly 1 second. Real football? Anywhere between 2-2.5s. Increasing the snap time and time needed for the punter to get the ball away allows more time for defenders to get in for blocks, and causes a more realistic punt coverage where guys actually have to block for an extended period of time before sprinting downfield (this is actually handled pretty well in GLB as it is).

Punters have so few SAs as is; perhaps if this is coded an SA for "Quick Punt" can be put in so the punt goes off quicker when a player breaks through and thus has less of a chance of being blocked, but with a -25 penalty to power, or something "realistic"?

Might be good, but first can we get the peewee punters to get the ball al the way to the KR man?

Why do punt returners always catch the ball? Especially if the punter booms one 65 yards. The return man is ALWAYS standing right there to catch it and instantly move forward instead of having to drop back, probably catch the ball moving backwards and then make progress with the ball,