Warrior General Games

Test date: 2/25/10 - 2/26/10

Tester: Various

Reason for test: Requested by Catch22, general tests to look for any obvious issues with Archetype Player end-builds during standard game play.

Originally posted by Catch22
I have the Archetype test teams set up including depth charts, and basic AI enabled (everything is set to be balanced). For right now, I want to evaluate just how the dots are moving/performing and determine if there are balance issues or things that look out of whack that we need to address. I'd like the testers to run test games and evaluate the game interactions for the following:

1) QB Passing
2) Power Running
3) Elusive Running
4) Route Running/Receiving
5) Fakes
6) Blocking
7) Tackling
8) Pass Rush
9) Run Defense
10) Pass Coverage
11) Returns
12) Other Misc. Interactions (whatever is not covered above)

[...]Once we've gotten a good sample of these in and have figured out how things are looking, we'll start testing more specific issues.
Game ID's / Links:

    1882: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1882 (Staz)
        - Testing archetype end builds (general testing)

    1883: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1883 (Johnbarber)
        - Testing archetype end builds; specifically run defense and run blocking

    1884: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1884 (Johnbarber)
        - Testing archetype end builds; specifically pass rush and pass blocking

    1885: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1885 (Sik Wit It)
        - Testing Archetype End Builds

    1886: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1886 (schrauben8542)
        - testing Archetype end builds (general observations)

Teams:
    Archetype Test Team 1: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=40
    Archetype Test Team 2: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=41
    Player builds: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread_list.pl?forum_id=8273


Method:
Originally posted by
Basic AI and player tactics.
Same rosters used for all games.

Results/Discussion:

Originally posted by Tester
A lot of what I saw was basic sim issues, and not archetype balance issues. I was concerned about kick power after the K made the first couple long FG attempts, but he missed a lot after that, so I am cool with it now.
Originally posted by Tester
I agree. A lot of my issues are sim issues, and not so much related to archetype balance. I think I might be clouded by that right now.
Originally posted by Catch22
Yes, please don't worry about sim issues - that's not the purpose of these tests. You are specifically looking for things that are over powered or look out of whack with players. There might be a good chance we don't see anything. [...]
Originally posted by Catch22
[...]Basically what you want to look for is two things when watching interactions.

1) OMG Overpowered - player is unstoppable
2) OMG Sucks - player can't do crap

Hopefully they fall into

3) OMG Average - just about right

If they are balanced, then this test will be quick and we'll start looking at sim issues rather than worry about this. That'll be a separate test though.
______________________________________

DEFENSIVE LINE

Originally posted by Tester
I started just watching for general issues, but the prevailing issue to me watching this is that the O-line is getting creamed by the D-line. I need to pull a game from the WL between two power houses for comparison, but the rushing game is down for sure in the games with Archetypes that I have watched. Preliminary thoughts are that the Archetype D-line is much better and the Archetype O-line has taken a step back hurting the running game. I think that teams of this caliber should be averaging at least 3 yards per carry.
On this play alone the entire O-line is down and out: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1886&pbp_id=408583
Originally posted by Catch22
looks like only 28 total pancakes by the OL in that game too - might be a valid issue... I am a bit concerned about taking away from the pass rush though by increasing the strength of the OL. There was 10 sacks in 113 pass attempts, which is just about right and a number I like to see.
So the question is this - if the DL is too strong or the OL is too weak (on run plays). What do we adjust to balance it?
I'd also like to see more than one game as a test for this to see if it is a recurring trend.
Originally posted by Tester
I'm working on pass and run blocking. Don't get fooled by total sack numbers as it seems restricted to certain builds and only after stamina decay has weakened the o-line builds (second half sacks are greater than first half). Just based off of feel at the moment and not hard numbers (working on it), pass rush isn't working correctly (advantage offense).
Originally posted by Tester
OL is too weak on run plays for sure.
There doesn't always have to be a pancake, just need the oline to engage and hold there block longer on run plays. If this could be tied into vis it would give a big boost to a stat people are starting to ignore for linemen.
Originally posted by Tester
I don't think we should concern ourselves with making pancakes an overly important stat. Looking at the interaction would be the better idea. There were plenty of times where I saw the C double team a DT or NT when the player was head up on a G, instead of going to the 2nd level. You get a C matched up with a LB, and not only will you raise pancakes, but you'll increase the run game.
Originally posted by Tester
Maybe just dial back revcakes a bit?
Originally posted by Tester
(referring to test game #1883)[...]No conclusion yet, not a large enough sample size but my opinion is that combo DT/DE isn't effective enough and Strength DT is too effective (at least for team 1). [...]
Originally posted by Tester
Finding the same thing at DT- Strength DT wins the majority of his battles so what's the point of going any other way
Originally posted by Tester
Been that way for a good 5 seasons actually.
Originally posted by Tester
Right now Speed DT's do nothing and Strength DT's do everything. The only pass blocking matchups that Strength DT's lost were to run oriented centers/guards. Speed DT's lost to everyone except on very rare occassions.
Originally posted by Tester
FWIW I think with top end builds the D line is too good against the running game in the current sim and this is what this testing is picking up. I think that if you used good slow built pre-archetype players you would see the same thing. [...]
Originally posted by Catch22
so the question is - do we tone down D-line ALG's to bring them closer to the OL or is it a sim interaction we need to fix?
Originally posted by Tester
I just looked through the whole OL and DL of test team 1, and there is only one player with stacked break block % (an lol speed DT which imo will never and should never be a viable build) and no players with stacked hold block %. I know that using two pieces will be a bit worse with the new stacking changes, but still this seems extremely unrealistic to me.
Edit: team 2 is just as bad with even less hold block % on the Oline again with no stacked players and only one player on the Dline with stacked BB%
______________________________________

POWER WR ARCHETYPE

Originally posted by Deathblade
Yeah, a lot of the issues I'm seeing are issues in the current sim, not archetypes.
One thing I did notice, was power WRs
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1886&pbp_id=408588
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1886&pbp_id=408608
Originally posted by Tester
I think those power WR plays were perfectly fine tbh.
Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by Tester
First one might look a little wonky, but what's wrong with the 2nd one? A 49 and 38 tackling player should miss like that, especially against a WR with power thru and break tackle AEQ.
You're exactly right.
They should.
But seeing as how there's no CB custom slots, CBs need to cover the new influx of 150 speed WRs, along with the ones with 100 strength and 12 Power Thru.
Originally posted by Deathblade
I just really dislike the whole concept of "You need Player A to stop Player B, and need Player C to stop player D", which I kind of fear might happen with CB/WR....you need the 120/120 CB in to even come close to covering the 150 speed 100 agility WR....that happens to be in rotation with the 100 speed 100 strength WR that you need a CB built like an LB to stop.
Build counters are good, but they should neither be 100% win, or 100% needed.
Originally posted by Tester
That CB should nearly always keep that WR from catching the ball in the first place, but if the WR does catch it he should be able to run him over. This brings us back to the WR/CB interactions thread.
Originally posted by Deathblade
It should also be noted that strength WRs will have a HUGE advantage in the run game...so if they are as effective as any other type in the passing game...why would anyone make something else?
Originally posted by Catch22
DB, are you saying we need to look at Power WR? I wasn't sure if that was what you were saying or not.
Originally posted by Deathblade
I'm saying we might want to keep an eye on them.
As mentioned earlier, it is likely a byproduct of a "meh" CB/WR interaction. I'm just struggling to see how a power WR is going to be balanced. I mean, there's no way CBs are going to keep up with the 150 speed WRs, and have enough str/tkl to keep the 100 strength 12 power through WRs in check. Not to mention that the 100 strength WR is basically going to get an instacake in the running game.
Really, the power WR needs an LB to cover him...but LBs are brain dead when trying to cover WRs.
Originally posted by Tester
I agree. Power WR can already cake the db and are overpowered in the run game, and add to that 10 PT and stack BB% AE and you will have some pretty dominate Power WR's that could be exploitable.
Originally posted by Tester
One way to solve this is make Blocking more important for run blocking than it is currently. As it is now, WRs can hold blocks for long periods of time with just 49 strength and 10 blocking. [...] Blocking is also underutilized all across the O-line. 4/5 O-line players will have Strength much higher than Blocking on most teams and do perfectly fine with it.
______________________________________

Originally posted by Catch22
I'm thinking the builds are pretty balanced. It's sim issues that we need to start looking at.
Thoughts on any potential build issues other than power WR that we need to look at more closely? For Power WR - do you think we should run some more focused tests looking at how they interact?

More testing is now being scheduled to look at the Power WR Archetype.


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That CB should nearly always keep that WR from catching the ball in the first place, but if the WR does catch it he should be able to run him over.

IMO if this happens it's good. Power WRs are meant to do things after the catch. And if the ball is deflected 90% of the time it goes to the power WR, I think I am fine with that 1 pass that goes long.

Like I said, IMO.

So what's to stop a Power WR from loading up on pancaking/morale VAs/SAs and just destroying a CBs morale in the Q1, and that making them useless vs passes in Q2? Especially if the talk about making stamina and morale being a bigger part of performance goes through.

"Originally posted by Tester
One way to solve this is make Blocking more important for run blocking than it is currently. As it is now, WRs can hold blocks for long periods of time with just 49 strength and 10 blocking. [...] Blocking is also underutilized all across the O-line. 4/5 O-line players will have Strength much higher than Blocking on most teams and do perfectly fine with it. "


if this is fixed in the sim(having blocking be more meaningful) could go a long way in improving the overall oline/dline interaction i would think

i dont know...for the most part what we are talking about is speed vs. power...speed certainly shouldnt be a + over strength...granted that should go both ways....i guess my main gripe is agility and how little it means in this game for WR's.

What about the DTs? Are they going to be tested more?

It seems like speed DT is an archetype than can only result in a bad player.

Originally posted by Fumanchuchu
What about the DTs? Are they going to be tested more?

It seems like speed DT is an archetype than can only result in a bad player.

It's not. I've run through a few builds in the build creator. All depends on the STYLE of build you're going for. If you want a big, heavy run stuffer, chances are you're better off with Strength or Combo. If you want a decent strength, but more mobile DT, you can use Speed DL.

Can you test 80 jumping, 100 catching, 10 RR, 10 SH, 10 JC, +21% catch ball chance possession WRs with Mr. Reliable, Possession WR, Clock Manager, and Slot Machine/Come Back Kid VAs? I'm worried that they will be incredibly overpowered, especially on 3rd and 4th down. They will be getting anywhere from 81-160+% to catch ball chance in addition to the bonus from SH. A build made to have a high base catch ball score with those bonuses should be pretty overpowered.

Originally posted by Staz
It's not. I've run through a few builds in the build creator. All depends on the STYLE of build you're going for. If you want a big, heavy run stuffer, chances are you're better off with Strength or Combo. If you want a decent strength, but more mobile DT, you can use Speed DL.

Interesting, I was watching one of the games recently and the speed DT did look crazy active inside.

Are all the archetype test builds listed somewhere? The sub forum only seems to show some of them.

Originally posted by Fumanchuchu
Are all the archetype test builds listed somewhere? The sub forum only seems to show some of them.

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game_summaries/XXXX.txt

Replace the XXXX with the game number.
E.g. http://test.goallineblitz.com/game_summaries/1882.txt

List of games and player summaries:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game_list.pl