Warrior General Games

It's also telling that the majority of the sacks happened in the 4th quarter as both teams were trying to come back from deficits.

Originally posted by Motiak
It's also telling that the majority of the sacks happened in the 4th quarter as both teams were trying to come back from deficits.

oh great, now we have to factor in cruise control?

Originally posted by im317
Originally posted by Motiak

It's also telling that the majority of the sacks happened in the 4th quarter as both teams were trying to come back from deficits.

oh great, now we have to factor in cruise control?

I honestly have no idea what you mean here. Who's factoring what in a game where the lead never got large enough for cruise control to kick in?

Bort just updated the blocking code on the test server. He's trying to improve the blocking logic, to both help the run game and eliminate exploit blitzs.

So, I put together a series of overloads on both teams (he gave me a 2nd so I won't have to keep pestering DeathBlade (thanks for being so cool about that, btw).

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1595

All in all, I see it as an improvement. Frankly, on a lot of those blitzes, there just aren't enough O dots to pick them up. The risk is getting burnt, and that happened some times. One of the changes he put in was to have the TE, HB & FB chip on a pass rusher when going out for their route. About the only suggestion I could make was to up the chip. If I didn't know better, I'd think the chip never occurred.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1595&pbp_id=346354


P.S. Something he is also kicking around is to have 2 distinctly different sets of blcking logic. As he said, every time he comes up with a fix for exploits, someone finds a way to exploit his new system. So, if he had 2 sets, at least ppl would be able to count on an exploit blitz working every time. No clue if it will come to that or if it will just stay in the "just a thought" stage.
This is just on the test server right now, not on the live server.

Next, I'll look at how run blocking works with this new blking logic

Originally posted by PP
Bort just updated the blocking code on the test server. He's trying to improve the blocking logic, to both help the run game and eliminate exploit blitzs.

So, I put together a series of overloads on both teams (he gave me a 2nd so I won't have to keep pestering DeathBlade (thanks for being so cool about that, btw).

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1595

All in all, I see it as an improvement. Frankly, on a lot of those blitzes, there just aren't enough O dots to pick them up. The risk is getting burnt, and that happened some times. One of the changes he put in was to have the TE, HB & FB chip on a pass rusher when going out for their route. About the only suggestion I could make was to up the chip. If I didn't know better, I'd think the chip never occurred.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1595&pbp_id=346354


P.S. Something he is also kicking around is to have 2 distinctly different sets of blcking logic. As he said, every time he comes up with a fix for exploits, someone finds a way to exploit his new system. So, if he had 2 sets, at least ppl would be able to count on an exploit blitz working every time. No clue if it will come to that or if it will just stay in the "just a thought" stage.
This is just on the test server right now, not on the live server.

Next, I'll look at how run blocking works with this new blking logic

2 Sets? ... How about 25-30 sets with O-Line vision deciding how to block it correctly.

He's trying to make it so one set of blking logic produces consistent results against any and everything a DC can throw at it. Not trying to speak for him, but I read his comment as saying, he's starting to question if that's possible. If not, he may have to try to skin the cat another way. I can understand wanting to be able to make 1 work. It's easier to fix 1 than 2 or 3 or 25-30.

I was just encouraged that he seems to be taking a "whatever it takes, I'm going to fix this shit" type attitude. Looking at past threads on the test server, it seems like the test server is getting more active than it was for quite a while, some of the testers are getting fired up to get things fixed (IMO, very few real head scratchers, WTH are you thinking type posts) and Bort seems to be all for it. I'm trying not to take anything for granted, but I am cautiously optimistic that things are heading in the right direction. Even if that turns out to be the case, I'm sure not saying that the road will be without potholes, but it seems like there are road crews on the job and they aren't just leaning on their shovels. Take that for the little its worth.

Does that mean that we're going into the season with the blocking code as it stands now or do you think we'll get an update/rollback sometime before the season starts?

Originally posted by Motiak
Does that mean that we're going into the season with the blocking code as it stands now or do you think we'll get an update/rollback sometime before the season starts?

I honestly don't know and wouldn't be shocked either way. He wrote that this is what he's been putting most of his work into, he's been testing it against exploits on the dev box and he thinks it's solid, but told me it wasn't on the live server, when I asked. He said he wanted us to test the hell out of it. At the very least, Hazy, DB and I all ran tests last night, and I suspect more did, as well.

Originally posted by PP
He's trying to make it so one set of blking logic produces consistent results against any and everything a DC can throw at it. Not trying to speak for him, but I read his comment as saying, he's starting to question if that's possible. If not, he may have to try to skin the cat another way. I can understand wanting to be able to make 1 work. It's easier to fix 1 than 2 or 3 or 25-30.

I was just encouraged that he seems to be taking a "whatever it takes, I'm going to fix this shit" type attitude. Looking at past threads on the test server, it seems like the test server is getting more active than it was for quite a while, some of the testers are getting fired up to get things fixed (IMO, very few real head scratchers, WTH are you thinking type posts) and Bort seems to be all for it. I'm trying not to take anything for granted, but I am cautiously optimistic that things are heading in the right direction. Even if that turns out to be the case, I'm sure not saying that the road will be without potholes, but it seems like there are road crews on the job and they aren't just leaning on their shovels. Take that for the little its worth.

As a DC it pains me to say it, but there is the verbage on the DPC about disabling certain features if exploits can be found. Has that option been looked into at all to limit the damage? 90% of these issues are due to DE's having such a wide range of placement, anywhere from 3 yds out from the tackle to right over the guard and their ability to be sent into zones which royally confuse any OL that had them selected.

Originally posted by Joe Buck
As a DC it pains me to say it, but there is the verbage on the DPC about disabling certain features if exploits can be found. Has that option been looked into at all to limit the damage? 90% of these issues are due to DE's having such a wide range of placement, anywhere from 3 yds out from the tackle to right over the guard and their ability to be sent into zones which royally confuse any OL that had them selected.

I've been running more exploit/overload type blitz tests today (in next post). I completely understand what you're saying, and it would help in some ways (I even just edited my testers' post to include something on that. What it still wouldn't solve would be the complete sell out overload blitzes that are working a bit too well. However, at least the D would have to sell out and, from my tests, there is a real risk to that.

Test game:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1602

Testing to see if throw away settings matter:
QB on Jacks set to Medium (sacked 26 times)
Running QB on TCTF set to Aggressive, but scrambling set to often (sacked 6 times)
Passing QB on TCTF set to Conservative (sacked 5 times)

Switched the passes up a little (tried to get a few more 5 WR sets) and fixed the one entry to blitz on 3rd for 1 of the teams:

HB should pick up this blitz (helps blocker double and allows de a free shot) (C should have shifted left, also).
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347710
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347717
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347732
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347760

HB&FB switch sides
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347716

C should probably shift to the left, where there's more blitzers than blockers...lots of examples of this, but I'll stop at 4
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347723
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347724
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347731
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347734

TE should really chip a lot more than this...Lots of examples, but this is enough:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347725
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347726

HB goes for a quickie with a cheerleader after the completion
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347727

FB should chip FS
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347736

LT has a force field around him?
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347757

This blitz does work p much every time against a 5 WR set
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1602&pbp_id=347759

That's only the 1st Quarter. I don't know if I'm being pickier today, if the pass changes made that much of a dif or if I'm just more awake.

I do have a couple suggestions that I think may help:
Have TE, FBs and HBs chip a lot more and have it make a more significant difference.

On HBs & FBs, it may be a good idea to at least have an option for them to stay in if they read blitz and they aren't the primary target

Make it so that QBs throw the ball away, say, 80% of the time to avoid the sack on conservative, 50% on medium and 0% on aggressive. Just pulling #s out of the air, but they feel about right to me.

When a rusher isn't blocked, have the QB immediately roll away from them, the % dependant on their scrambler setting. They'll still get some of those sacks, but it should also buy a little more time to get a few passes off. The almost never setting, they try to run 0%, but roll away from unblocked defenders 50% of the time. Sometimes, they roll away 70% and try to run 25%. Often, roll 90% and run 50%. In each case, that only applies to when there is an unblocked rusher. The result of regular pressure (dot beating dot) could remain as is.

Make sure that the C shifts to whatever side is overloaded. If both are, have him shift to the closest dot.

The HBs/FBs shouldn't make every block, but, when they are kept in, they should take a free dot every time and slow the blitzer down a bit more then they do, when they get beat fast. Since that's all they are doing, they almost never help double when a rusher is unblocked in rl (may pick the wrong free dot, if more than 1 are free, but almost always get a free one, if any are free).

Last point, modified version of a comment Joe Buck made in my test results thread. Greatly limit the shifting the DL can do in the DPC. It wouldn't fix the overload problems, but at least that way the Ds would have to run a sell out blitz to overload an area. In turn, that would theoretically make them much more vulnerable to screens and other quick hitters.

Originally posted by Joe Buck
As a DC it pains me to say it, but there is the verbage on the DPC about disabling certain features if exploits can be found. Has that option been looked into at all to limit the damage? 90% of these issues are due to DE's having such a wide range of placement, anywhere from 3 yds out from the tackle to right over the guard and their ability to be sent into zones which royally confuse any OL that had them selected.

Hope some of those ideas help

Agree with everything on the post except Joe Bucks suggestion. Thanks for doing this.

Originally posted by PP
I do have a couple suggestions that I think may help:
Have TE, FBs and HBs chip a lot more and have it make a more significant difference.

I do not understand that automatic chip by RBs. In RL TEs will usually chip the DE (or anyone on the LOS near them), but that is an trivial read someone near you hit him. RBs cannot and actually do not do it in RL. A RB has three options:
1) Go to the route
2) Block
3) Wait a look for a blitz/ protection failure, if no blitz go to the route.
The difference between all three is by desgin and called before the play.
When a RB goes to a route he should do it fast, no time to waste reading defense. Likely 90% of the time he will not see a blitz coming. When the blitz go pass his face he will warn the QB and turn for a quick pass.

How is Bort implementing the chipping for RBs ? Do they have supervision and just know when a LB is blitzing ? If the LB is set to read the HB and blitz when he stay too block what happen first ?

Originally posted by PP
Make sure that the C shifts to whatever side is overloaded. If both are, have him shift to the closest dot.

Center shift should be coordinated with the TE and RBs. For example: if the RB is blocking on the left the default will be C shift right. It is a part of the protection design of the play. This kind of pre-snap shift can only change if there is a clear read from the defense:
- A DL shift
- A defender showing a blitz
- More possible rusher (anyone within 5yds from the LOS) that signals an overload (If RB block left and TE right, if the pre snap read is 2 DL+1 LB to the right of the center and 2 DL+2LB to his left this should make the center shift left)

tragula, I see RBs chip all the time. Do you just watch college?

Originally posted by Troymk1
tragula, I see RBs chip all the time. Do you just watch college?

I also watch pro's but I never care what happen so far away from the trenches. My football understanding comes from a much lower level then collage or pros. So I may be wrong.

But there is a big difference from plays where the RB delays and plays that the RB just hut the route in full speed. They are different play calls (or maybe pre-snap protection adjustments). I just cannot understand how a RB which has a wheel route (like the SB wheel) can do anything but take run in full speed. Chipping is not something you can do in full speed (you will never hit the target, and more likely will fall or commit penalty)