Warrior General Games

How important is VISION for punt and kick returns in your mind? Basically how high would you want your returners vision

3rd or 4th most important attribute.

I've heard it's not very important, haven't really ever built a returner myself tho.

really now I have built several trys
Vision will get a jump start at return specialist
ratting about 3rd speed is still king in the end result

after speed, agility, and vision, what would you rank as the next couple most important attributes to train.

Carrying? Some guys have high strength too so they're harder to stop.

I've got an excellent return man who had 30 punt return TD's and 2 kickoff TD's:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=961729

From my experience, vision isn't very important. Use these as references:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419869&pbp_id=14664198 (56yd punt return - my fav punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=335354&pbp_id=9533928 (64yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=335311&pbp_id=4963331 (66.5yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419862&pbp_id=8137126 (77.5yd OPENING kickoff return - my fav kick return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419862&pbp_id=8139345 (91.5yd kickoff return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419861&pbp_id=7203776 (56yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419861&pbp_id=7192640 (77yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2511258 (63yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2510564 (73yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2509425 (64.5yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2507083 (82.5yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2505919 (44.5yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419863&pbp_id=9050448 (77yd punt return)

What I want you to notice is my kick return man many times found the opening holes just fine... and he had roughly ~25 vision. Could he have found the holes better with higher vision? Perhaps... but it's hard to do better than what my guy did on a lot of those returns, especially on these two:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419862&pbp_id=8137126 (fav kickoff return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419869&pbp_id=14664198 (fav punt return - I had NO juke equipment on me at the time)
^ He knew EXACTLY when to accelerate/decelerate, when to make his cuts, he read his blockers, was smart enough to jiggle to trick slower defenders... I'm simply not convinced higher vision would have improved anything on those plays.

It's worth training vision, but never invest SP's in it. The same goes for strength and carrying. Intense train them both, but never put SP's in them.

Keep cranking up your speed and agility. Avoid SA's for a long time and search for custom equipment in both "Return Spec" and "Juke." Use all your VA's in "Special Teamer." What's great about Special Teamer is it was NOT nerfed by Bort. It still gives +1% to ALL attributes. After maxing that, start max tagging "Return Man." This is why shopping for the Juke item is important (hint hint!).

Hope this helps. If you have any further questions, feel free to post or PM me.

Originally posted by ReMeDy
I've got an excellent return man who had 30 punt return TD's and 2 kickoff TD's:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=961729

From my experience, vision isn't very important. Use these as references:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419869&pbp_id=14664198 (56yd punt return - my fav punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=335354&pbp_id=9533928 (64yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=335311&pbp_id=4963331 (66.5yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419862&pbp_id=8137126 (77.5yd OPENING kickoff return - my fav kick return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419862&pbp_id=8139345 (91.5yd kickoff return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419861&pbp_id=7203776 (56yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419861&pbp_id=7192640 (77yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2511258 (63yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2510564 (73yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2509425 (64.5yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2507083 (82.5yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419973&pbp_id=2505919 (44.5yd punt return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419863&pbp_id=9050448 (77yd punt return)

What I want you to notice is my kick return man many times found the opening holes just fine... and he had roughly ~25 vision. Could he have found the holes better with higher vision? Perhaps... but it's hard to do better than what my guy did on a lot of those returns, especially on these two:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419862&pbp_id=8137126 (fav kickoff return)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=419869&pbp_id=14664198 (fav punt return - I had NO juke equipment on me at the time)
^ He knew EXACTLY when to accelerate/decelerate, when to make his cuts, he read his blockers, was smart enough to jiggle to trick slower defenders... I'm simply not convinced higher vision would have improved anything on those plays.

It's worth training vision, but never invest SP's in it. The same goes for strength and carrying. Intense train them both, but never put SP's in them.

Keep cranking up your speed and agility. Avoid SA's for a long time and search for custom equipment in both "Return Spec" and "Juke." Use all your VA's in "Special Teamer." What's great about Special Teamer is it was NOT nerfed by Bort. It still gives +1% to ALL attributes. After maxing that, start max tagging "Return Man." This is why shopping for the Juke item is important (hint hint!).

Hope this helps. If you have any further questions, feel free to post or PM me.

All of those opponents have one thing in common: they suck

Regardless, 30 TDs is 30 TDs.

Thanks a ton for the post ReMeDy.

And WSUfanatic: Don't ever post here again.

Originally posted by oban14
And WSUfanatic: Don't ever post here again.

How about this chief? Don't ever tell me where to post, again.

For you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoKAcVL_phI

Speed
Agility
Carrying
Vision


That's the order.

And absolutely put points into carrying. It should be 3rd capped.

Originally posted by divinevert
Speed
Agility
Carrying
Vision


That's the order.

And absolutely put points into carrying. It should be 3rd capped.

For a pure returner who is level 48+ I agree that carrying should be 68+. This is probably the most under appreciated aspect of returners.

Originally posted by armysean59
Originally posted by divinevert

Speed
Agility
Carrying
Vision


That's the order.

And absolutely put points into carrying. It should be 3rd capped.

For a pure returner who is level 48+ I agree that carrying should be 68+. This is probably the most under appreciated aspect of returners.

I disagree about carrying, my returner has but three fumbles in the last three seasons, 0 last season, and his carrying is 40. He has also been the low guy in the league since he started.

Also, my kick returner who got 65 TD's last season says vision is important. I could link em all but This one is my favorite;
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=465545&pbp_id=17204999
First round playoffs, a TD against real competition. One of the few that I actually count as a legitimate TD.

Originally posted by Gaz
Carrying? Some guys have high strength too so they're harder to stop.

Carrying is now more important than strength in the break tackle roll. I would rank them as follows:

Speed
Agility
Vision
Carrying
Confidence

IMO, work on your 3 primary attributes while training a combo of carrying/confidence/stamina and then use the BT's to roll an AE with Juke and build that up. Then get the Special Teamer VA (+15% to all attributes while on ST's) and Return Man (I think that's what it's called - +45% to vision, 30% to head fake/juke/spin , 30% to not fumble). Say you slow built a player and 4 capped Speed and Agility and 60 capped vision (which is what my returner will have):

By lv 48 you should have 30 VA's (this is not factoring in the bonus from the Return Specialist SA).

Base Attributes:
Speed - 80 + 34 EQ (7x4 +6)
Agility - 80
Vision - 60

Sum of Attributes (+VA %):

Speed - 80 x 1.15 +34 = 126

Agility - 80 x 1.15 = 92

Vision - 60 x1.6 (45% + 15%) = 96

Now factor in the 30% bonus to the success rate of the Juke AE you just rolled and you have one hell of a Return Man.

If you want to go further than that, assume you also managed to 60 cap carrying:

Carrying - 60 x 1.15 = 69

I would hate to try and tackle him .

*Someone check my math, I think it's right. And yes, you can have 80 base speed at lv 48 - my DE has 78 base Speed and Agility at lv 39 and I messed up his build.*