Warrior General Games

Clarified with Bort related to this discussion http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2235472&page=1

Originally posted by Koncorde
Advanced Equipment with a +% to faking works with Pump Fake.

It does not apply to Turn Shoulder however.

Added a section in the 2nd post above about what Bort has posted about new code he is testing on the test server (NOT HERE on regular GLB). Also read the disclaimer at the intro to that section.

Also added a section in the Normal I plays about the weak side handoff which was adjusted to make the handoff more fluid.

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For those of you wondering what Bort is thinking of doing with power back/LB balance, here is some good info:

Originally posted by Bort
I think I will play with it and see what happens.

What I'm thinking:

Current missed->drag ratio stays the same, vision check or not
Add an increased range at which a failed vision check turns into a drag.

The question remains what to do with confidence - the possibility of cowering from scary tacklers sounds kinda fun, and adds some required attributes, as long as it doesn't happen too often.

Originally posted by Koncorde
I'd love to see confidence used as a modifier to the tackle break mechanics

However I'd be very wary of going too heavy too soon, as you might find you nerf every powerback in GLB who only has 30 confidence.

Personally I've always been of the belief that energy should be more important for a powerback, and that impact through tackles should have increased wear and tear due to the amount of contact initiated.

A long run breaking 3 or 4 tackles should hurt the HB as much as it does the D.

Originally posted by Bort
I could increase energy usage on break tackles even more. I did a little but this season, actually, though not a ton. Quite a few power backs have higher (50+) stamina because of that belief, I've found. I think they tend to ignore vision and confidence instead.

I could also think about having some sort of per-play energy effect that is far greater than the overall energy effect, that resets at the start of the next play. Might be kind of interesting to play with. I'd want to to a bunch of balance tests in general with that idea, though, since it would be an entirely new dynamic.

Originally posted by Koncorde
That was more what I was thinking.

The QB's General skill is already giving a boost to the HB.

The issue with having tiredness prolonged between snaps is that you get teamsstacking 3 or 4 powerbacks instead. So the tiredness in the actual play would probably be better - particularly the sapping of energy from contact.

Here is the game: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=336&mode=pbp
Here is the HB: http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/tpaterniti/Thad_Sloman.jpg (power back, high strength and carrying, low speed and agility)
Here is the box score: http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/tpaterniti/BoxScore.jpg

Originally posted by Tester
Okay, watched the sim I'd scheduled. Early on, it seemed that Lard Butt (the ultra-power back's nickname) couldn't break tackles much at all, but that improved. I still never saw the drag animation.

Originally posted by Bort
I believe this is a "drag" on the DT:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=336&pbp_id=104851

Sometimes they happen in traffic and are hard to spot.

It seems like in both games (the one I ran and the one you ran) that Lard Butt broke a bunch of tackles but he really didn't do all that much in the end; ~30 carries and 80-100 yards? 3.5 YPC? Meh.

Originally posted by Bort
I'm trying out some new code that affects all players, that I don't know why I haven't tried before:

There's a balance value that's affected by stuff happening - we all know that. However, all it has done in the past is determine when you fall down (reach 0 and you fall down). I've just updated things to adjust the player's max velocity when he is off balance. You gain back balance every tick.

This may head off a potential exploity build of having really high break tackle ability combined with really high first step, where you would break tackles and nearly immediately get back to full speed.

This also would affect other positions, though mostly line play. I.E. a blitzer who gets partially blocked would go off balance and be slowed down until he gained it back.

Originally posted by Bort
It's live now, and was of the moment I posted that post - I'm interested to see if it changes things much at all.

i.e. It is on real GLB right now! as of 3-7-09

Re: the QB dropback on the screen from the Strong I formation (discussed on the first page)

As of 3-7-09

Originally posted by Bort
I've updated all 3 of the HB screen plays (I, Strong I, Singleback) on test - check it out and lemme know if there's too many sacks, etc.

Originally posted by Tester
Tested...looked much better.

Note QB dropback adjusted for all HB Screen plays, not just Strong I version.

Answered Question

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by tpaterniti

Originally posted by Sik Wit It


Do you know by any chance what goes into the balance equation Bort talked about? I know he wants to make people slow down when off-balance...what determines how off-balance you get? Is it a particular attribute or is it just constant for everyone despite position?


It depends on how hard you get hit and your attributes - roll vs roll, and is calculated as a percentage value of a maximum.

The only times balance really come into play is breaking tackles and blocking. It's how the sim determines when you fall down from those things.

With regard to the balance update which I reported as active in GLB. Turns out I misunderstood Bort and it was active on the tst server but not on regular GLB.

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by tpaterniti

OK so it was a misunderstanding. I thought "live" = live in real GLB.

I'll attempt to make sure I say "live on test" or something like that to make sure we don't get confused again.

In the future, though, unless it's in the change log, it's not live on the site.

Bort has added an early version of the O-play creator. I can't screenshot it now on the computer I'm on, but I can do it later.

Here is some info on the passing game that you may find useful. I am reformatting it a little to make it easier to follow.

Originally posted by Koncorde
Quick query on this Bort, regarding a few threads raised in the Bugs forum.

1 - When travelling at a diagonal to the position of the LOS, how does the QB actually know where to throw? Does the throw actually factor in the continued motion of the WR and the speed of the pass (and therefore its velocity)? http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=377462&pbp_id=2528572

Originally posted by Bort
1. He calculates the ground velocity of his throw, and figures out where the runner will be in X ticks, X being based on that throw velocity and the runner's vector/speed, and then he throws there.

Originally posted by Koncorde
2 - When travelling on a streak route, what is the WR's priority. To go for the ball as soon as he can (i.e. once the ball is over his head - jump for it) or to continue running until it falls into his hands and/or until the last possible moment? It appears to be the "as soon as he can". http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=377462&pbp_id=2529007 and appears to have a similar flaw to the above in terms of "leading" the man.

Originally posted by Bort
2. Head to the spot that the QB's code says the ball will land in the "sweet" spot - which is chest height. This is based on a perfect throw. If the QB throws the ball wobbly, the WR has to recalculate himself where to go, which is generally the closest spot where he can get it.

Originally posted by Koncorde
3 - Can momentum, and therefore motion (diagonal or otherwise) be maintained whilst jumping or is an automatic "stop". http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=383680&pbp_id=4797228 (I presume this is an attempted jump catch, or else I can't explain his motion in response to the height of the pass)

Originally posted by Bort
3. Momentum is just slowed down during a jump catch. It doesn't actually cause a full stop unless the ball is caught. I don't know exactly what the WR was doing there, tbh, without doing some tests.

Originally posted by Koncorde
4 - When the QB throws (and we see defenders react instantly) is the WR programmed to stop immediately in order to make the catch.

Originally posted by Bort
4. No, he's programmed to go to where he thinks he can catch the ball (based on number 2 above).

Originally posted by Koncorde
A related question would be - does a WR actually have the ability to make a catch "over his shoulder" and therefore maintain speed provided the ball arrives 'ahead' of him.

Because currently it appears as if every WR stops and faces the QB at the point his motion ceases.

Originally posted by Bort
If the ball is perfectly thrown and caught at the sweet spot height, the WR loses zero momentum (if he had any) and can catch on the fly.

Originally posted by Koncorde
So we need to identify the issue that causes the WR stops moving and therefore loses his momentum?

Two near identical plays:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=375350&pbp_id=5116597 - stops dead.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=375350&pbp_id=5115971 - appears to maintain momentum.

Originally posted by Bort
It's very likely just differences in the pass quality. Low quality passes that are too low or too high will require the receiver to slow down or stop to deal with them.

Originally posted by Koncorde
Quick queries:
- I'm right in saying that vision is the basis for Pass Quality I presume? You did suggest that in season 6's Passing Logic thread I think.

- I don't need to know the specifics - but Throwing, does that have any bearing (equal, or less) in pass quality?

- Has QB ability been dialled down since season 7 at all. I mean, have you at all increased any vision or passing modifiers that could be detrimental to Pass Quality (just to get that out of the way as an answer back to the masses).
Originally posted by Bort
PQ is mainly based on vision and throwing ability, though things like confidence and SA's go into it too. It is affected downward by the pass distance compared to the QB's max pass distance, if the QB fails a check against it. So if a QB can only throw 30 yards, and the pass is 30 yards, pass quality is very likely going to be lessened, and a wobbly pass results.

QB ability got knocked down very slightly by making the check required to have a wobbly pass a little harder to pass, though not much. I also increased the range of x/y "offness" that a wobbly pass could result in. Everything else (seeing open men, etc, and risk calcs, etc) are the same.

I sometimes wonder, however, if the under/overthrow shown by some people is not really that, but the QB trying to throw away from defenders. If all the defenders are over the top, the QB is more likely to throw short, etc.

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Bort trying to isolate the problem (why passing is so hard this season compared to last) on his dev box and on the test servers (i.e. NOT on real GLB obviously)

Originally posted by Bort
I just had a thought (I did this when working on it myself) - I could turn off the section of code that makes wobbly passes, so every pass is as perfect as the particular QB can throw it. I could also make pass quality a set value at 100 to make every pass max catchable, and maybe turn off PD's and turn off the "throw away from defenders" code. We can then work on getting the passing mechanic correct for a variety of builds. Theoretically with everything perfect, completions should be very near 100%, with the exception of drops.

Originally posted by Bort
Working some more on this - I've disabled the defense and mistakes on my dev box, and am attempting to work out the math.

Variable acceleration due to decreasing energy and direction changes and the parabolic path of the ball makes the math involved so much more complicated than constant velocities, if I want an exact answer for an intercept point. I'm finding that my calculations are correct most of the time, and other times just a little too far or a little too short. I think there are minor inconsistencies because of the tick system and floating point accuracy as well.

3-10-09

Originally posted by Bort
- New version of QB lead calculations


On test server not GLB.

3-18-09

Originally posted by Bort
I just uploaded a few updates I've been poking at the last couple days, which will need some testing and feedback.

1. Situational LB and NT depth chart positions (use like TE1, HB1, etc). I have a plan to also extend this to a formation specific substitutions page, where you can choose something like "On nickel plays, use the LOLB1 depth chart instead of LOLB." This could allow a little more customization for basic tactics teams that is not too in depth for them.

2. There is now a energy/morale summary generated at the end of a sim. Owners and GM's with offense or defense ai abilities can access it. There's also currently some sort of bug with play counts on it for K/P I think.

3. I've done a little fiddling with a few things related to tackling and rushing, to see how they work out:
- I noticed that one of my test players still had 50 energy after rushing 80 times and breaking 40 tackles, even though he only had 28 stamina. Cranked up the energy usage per carry.
- Falling forward less likely and not as far when you do.
- I've done a little muddling with morale, as the O line wasn't losing much on tackle for loss situations (mostly just on sacks).
- Adjustment to intercept point calculations a bit - I noticed some of the problems of attacking the rush is because the LB's will often sort of just stand in the hole and wait for the RB to get to them, instead of attacking.

3. I did an adjustment on screen passes, as I think one of my lead throw calculations was throwing it off. Run a test and check it out.

(the below additions are a summary of the above)

Originally posted by Bort
- LOLB1/ROLB1 etc. depth chart positions added
- Adjustment to lead calculation on screen passes
- Game summary page
- Some modifications to energy usage on rushing

Problem with incomplete screen passes: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=354&pbp_id=108306

Originally posted by Bort
Included in recent update: probable fix to this, though not certain.

More Power Back Discussion (and some elusive as well) - the main debate is over extra yards gained while being tackled.

Originally posted by Bort
I've seen this complained about - that perhaps falling forward and dive 4 yards type SA's and VAs are too powerful. Or perhaps it's just too hard to stop guys from falling forward. Your LB's might meet them at the line, but they gain an extra 2 yards from diving, etc.

Anyone want to run some tests and/or comment?

Originally posted by Tester
I've long thought this-- not so much when it's an SA or a VA, but the fact it happens so often without "Dive For Yards" or a VA (in fact, I think Mr. First Down should be a 5%/level chance, that it's too weak-- and that we aren't usually talking about 0.5 yards here). I doubt those abilities need to be weakened, but just from my experiences I think the chances of picking up yards while being tackled, without those abilities, are considerably too high.

It does help, it seems, not to be on wrap-up; and that's a good thing. But when not on wrap-up and the opponent lacks that ability, he should be stopped where he's tackled, or within 0.5 yards, almost all the time. Even on wrap-up, falling forward should occur less often or for less yardage than it does.

Originally posted by Norsemanvike
I'd have to agree that happens way too often and the main complaint, as I see it, is the combination of strength/carrying/diving SAs. The defender will hit the ball carrier and the next thing you know, the ball carrier is 3-4 more yards down field and there's at least a healthy gap between the two, even when they meet head on in the middle of heavy traffic. In these scenarios, you wouldn't normally see a ball carrier diving for yardage after or in the process of being tackled in the middle of traffic (they generally go down pretty quick in reality). Instead, you normally see diving for extra yards after being hit when the players are in the open and the defender essentially dives and knocks the ball carrier off balance and momentum moves the ball carrier the extra yardage. So I would have to agree with the folks complaining.

I'm not sure how the coding works, but something like this is what I would imagine.

Tackle type: roll metric for extra yardage (0 = easy to get extra yards, 100 = impossible), max possible extra yards

Head on: 75, 0-1.5
45 angle: 50, 1-2.5
Side angle: 25, 2-3.5
Behind: 0, 3-4

Speed runners would have a better chance at getting the extra yards from side or behind tackles while power runners would benefit most from the 45 angle and head on tackles. Power runners aren't really known for the agility it takes to make miraculous dives for extra yardage, but the elusive guys are.


Originally posted by Tester
This definitely isn't a power vs. speed back issue. I've seen both kinds of rushers get way too many extra yards while being tackled.

Basically, what needs to be done is that falling forward should happen without an SA/VA about half as often as it does, regardless of back type, and when it does it should never be more than about a yard.

Originally posted by Tester
I don't think its too far off from reality with the way it is now. BRICK WALL seems to look like the way to combat the extra yards at the LOS? If an entire DL + LB were max'd out with Brick Wall... wouldnt that be a team that will stuff the run quite well? Then again...so many HBs have 7+ average YPC for their careers.

Maybe a good answer is using ball carrier velocity speed as a factor to the % chance for extra yards and/or a velocity+carrying as part of the formula. An agile RB failing a "slip" or "juke" could be stopped more often with no extra yards... Maybe even lose half a yard as the ref may place the ball behind where he actually got stopped?

An RB tangled at the LOS should, in my estimation, be more likely to be stopped upon contact with a tackler (all else being equal).

The way I think it could work well:
An RB moving at an angle towards the strong side sidelines and hit from, say, the weak side of the field (ROLB or MLB) could have a better chance for extra yards as the LB isn't "square" on him. A LOLB who hits him from the strong side as the HB goes to the strong side...maybe that LOLB should have a greater chance to stop the HB on the spot, perhaps a better chance to FF as well since he's "squared up" on the HB in that situation. At the same time, I could see the same ROLB/MLB have a greater chance to strip the ball as they have an angle that a HB may not see it coming... whereas seeing the squared up LOLB would have the HB securing the ball more often?

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by Tester

I always thought (partially because they aren't available until Level 25 and aren't available at high levels until much later) that VA's should be an enhancement and not necessary for a realistic outcome.

Yes.

Originally posted by Bort
I've got an update now on the test server to test this out. Hopefully with an up to energy usage per rush it works well and doesn't neuter rushing in the mean time. On my dev box its working fairly well.

Originally posted by Tester
Rushing type definitely should matter on amount of forward progress after contact. The further the bar is to elusive the more likely the carrier is to be moving sideways. Being tackled without forward momentum certainly won't yield the same results as being tackling while going north/south.

The add on is Carrying. What does Carrying do? Does it only affect your ability to put a pass away and not fumble or does it help trigger SA's, does it help you create glancing blows instead of solid hits. I don't really know what GLB Carrying does.

Originally posted by Bort
When falling forward, the sim takes your velocity vector, your height, and your SA's and VA's to figure out the maximum for how far you can dive or fight out. Then it chops it down based on the quality of the tackle and his abilities vs the ball carrier's. The value I generally will adjust is the multiplier used to figure out how much to chop it down by.

FYI: carrying is all those things. It's "how well you handle the ball and run with it." Its main purpose is fumble avoidance, though.

Just updated this section:

Tester Information

-Admins: Bort, Digital Daggers, Thorn
-Admins who do not test: EllisBell, Max Zorin, Pallow, Rick Blaine
-Mods who test: bigtisme (inactive), Darkus Black, dirk41 (inactive), DrkSandman, J9, jed (inactive), Koncorde, madet0rder, norsemanvike, tpaterniti, Vanilla Thunder, Vawn, Voltron (inactive), ฿ones
-Mods who do not test: Deathblade, Esen, Galkuris, hud, no Forum specific mods either
-Regular Users:

Mike Rogers (inactive due to surgery, 81 players, 3 teams)
Rate (active, 41 players, 1 team)

User 1 (inactive, 2 players (no skill points assigned), no teams)
User 2 (active, 28 players, 1 team)
User 3 (active, 2 players (neither on teams), 1 team)
User 4 (active, 53 players (some with skill points assigned, some without), 1 team)
User 5 (active, 37 players, 1 team)
User 6 (active, 59 players, 1 team)
User 7 (inactive, 1 player (no skill points assigned), no teams)
User 8 (active, 58 players, 1 team)
User 9 (active, 32 players, 1 team)
User 10 (active, no players, 1 team)

This brings the number of active non-admin testers to 20 including Mike Rogers (10 mods and 10 regular users). Users are declared inactive if it has been at least a week since they logged on to the test server.