Warrior General Games

i suck at math but +1

Originally posted by Slinger17
Originally posted by loganrobert85

i can get my 654233984284 year old calculus teacher to help.

but seriously, good ideas

well, it has more to do with physics than calculus, but i've takn both of those classes, so if you get me the numbers i'll crunch them and figure out the max distance as well as the angle. I'd need height of field goal post and the initial velocity of the football, and i think i could figure it out from there...

Damn i'm a nerd....

Perhaps it's been too long since I took physics but 45 degrees would be your ideal angle for a projectile, no? I'm thinking I will have to read this ESPN article. I do receive the magazine (I have for years) but I tend to just stack them and not read them.

What he's talking about is basically...ideally the K wants to send the ball off at 45 degrees for the best kick, but if it's further back than his "comfort zone" then, sending it off at a lower angle will give longer distance, so long as his velocity increases to match the lower angled trajectory...accuracy will suffer, as he'll be focusing on his kicking power more than the 'perfect strike' but in crunchtime, that long FG might win or lose the game, and they have no choice but to push their leg to it's limit.

I'm no physics expert, but this is talking very basic physics here...

Originally posted by turnerhero
What he's talking about is basically...ideally the K wants to send the ball off at 45 degrees for the best kick, but if it's further back than his "comfort zone" then, sending it off at a lower angle will give longer distance, so long as his velocity increases to match the lower angled trajectory...accuracy will suffer, as he'll be focusing on his kicking power more than the 'perfect strike' but in crunchtime, that long FG might win or lose the game, and they have no choice but to push their leg to it's limit.

I'm no physics expert, but this is talking very basic physics here...

wtf?

Good stuff drifter, I'm epic'ing it since if it doesn't work this way, you're right, it should, and everyone else seems to agree.

What about field goal replays? Could this help with adding them in?

Originally posted by EevilZombie
What about field goal replays? Could this help with adding them in?

Possibly. Even more so now that the ball on the replays shows height. The straight line numbers should be simple, but how do we determine the left to right variation on a kick?

+1

+1 maybe replays can be availble since we do have replays for punt return and kick off, why not FG's. If the reason why we dont do replays is because it would give too much information than why do we have replays in the first place because we use all the information from replays to scout

Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Originally posted by Slinger17

Originally posted by loganrobert85


i can get my 654233984284 year old calculus teacher to help.

but seriously, good ideas

well, it has more to do with physics than calculus, but i've takn both of those classes, so if you get me the numbers i'll crunch them and figure out the max distance as well as the angle. I'd need height of field goal post and the initial velocity of the football, and i think i could figure it out from there...

Damn i'm a nerd....

Perhaps it's been too long since I took physics but 45 degrees would be your ideal angle for a projectile, no? I'm thinking I will have to read this ESPN article. I do receive the magazine (I have for years) but I tend to just stack them and not read them.

45 gives the greatest length IN THEORY, yes. A projectile being launched at the same speed in either 30 or 60 degree (both 15 degrees off 45), after which it only gets affected by gravity, will hit the ground the same spot.

HOWEVER, in the real world there is also such a thing called drag, and that is why the optimal angle for longer kicks get lower than 45 degree. Optimal for distance, not for the risk of being blocked. I'm assuming that it's also easier to transfer more power from the foot to the ball the lower the kicking angle is. For instance it's somewhat difficult to kick a ball vertical.

I really like this suggestion - best way to make kickers (and FG attempts) more interesting imo. Blocked kicks should be returnable btw... and you could make a sliding bar for kick angle tendency kinda like running style. Vision still affects the angle the kicker chooses, but he can modify his bias depending on whether he's facing a team that blocks a lot of kicks or not.

45 degrees is the optimal angle as long as there is no air resistance and the transfer of momentum to the projectile is 100% by the foot kicking it. I could see 35% being more likely in a non-ideal situation, like kicking an oblong object from a placehold with wind going on, etc.

The sim does not take air resistance or wind into account, nor does it care about the shape of the ball, so the optimal distance is achieved at 45 degrees, and that's what's used to calculate max distance currently, using a standard parabolic trajectory formula. That's used for throws, punts, kicks, etc.

I really don't know what it would take to make 35 work like it does in real life, according to the pro kickers out there. Is there a mister super physics out there with ideas or suggestions?

Originally posted by Bort
45 degrees is the optimal angle as long as there is no air resistance and the transfer of momentum to the projectile is 100% by the foot kicking it. I could see 35% being more likely in a non-ideal situation, like kicking an oblong object from a placehold with wind going on, etc.

The sim does not take air resistance or wind into account, nor does it care about the shape of the ball, so the optimal distance is achieved at 45 degrees, and that's what's used to calculate max distance currently, using a standard parabolic trajectory formula. That's used for throws, punts, kicks, etc.

I really don't know what it would take to make 35 work like it does in real life, according to the pro kickers out there. Is there a mister super physics out there with ideas or suggestions?

Do you want air drag to be involved? Because I could do the calculations assuming its a point mass. When you assume rigid body, then you got to take in account all the spinning about the different axis.

Seriously though if you want to add this in and need some help in the physics of it, I'm your guy.

Edit: Didn't feel the need to bump.
Originally posted by Snefens
I'm assuming that it's also easier to transfer more power from the foot to the ball the lower the kicking angle is. For instance it's somewhat difficult to kick a ball vertical.

This is the reason for the lower angle. Since this is the reason, the problem is no longer a simple kinematics problem, even if you neglect air drag. Now the problem becomes calculating the initial velocity based on an angle, and then the kinematics problem part of it.

So, V=f(theta) due to power transmission from the foot to the ball. (this equation is the hard one to find)
X=f(V,theta)
Y=f(V,theta)

from those three equations an optimal angle can be derived.

After looking at it a little closer I could to a simulation of the football including the nonlinear air drag, even include the shape of the football. If you think this would be a good idea PM me, and I'll actually go through all the dynamics of it. It may take a week or so for me to get it right, but it might be worth it when consider it could be added to passing too.

It's definitely way dependent on the velocity magnitude v, because the goal posts are 10 feet high (so the time of flight is more confusing). Normally in your 45-degree estimate, it's b/c v t sin Θ - 1/2 a t^2 = 0, so t = 2v/a sin Θ and thus the distance covered is vt cos Θ = v^2/a sin 2Θ which maximizes over Θ when 2Θ = π/2, or Θ = π/4 (45 degrees).

The problem is that now you constrain v t sin Θ - 1/2 a t^2 = 10, which means the ball meets the plane of the uprights at a much more complicated expression: t = (v sin Θ + sqrt(v^2 sin^2 Θ - 20g))/a and thus we want to maximize, over Θ, the function d(Θ = v/a cos Θ (v sin Θ + sqrt(v^2 sin^2 Θ - 20g)) = v/a (v/2 sin 2Θ + cos Θ sqrt(v^2 sin^2 Θ - 20g)). Notice that if we were dealing with no crossbar, the 20g would go away and we'd get the above solution. We can ignore the v/a too.

So the summary is that the optimal Θ is one that maximizes v/2 sin 2Θ + cos Θ sqrt(v^2 sin^2 Θ - 20g)). I tried to tkae the derivative, etc. and it turns out to be a cubic equation in the variable sin^2 Θ, which means it's solvable and probably only has one solution in [0, π/2].