Warrior General Games

Originally posted by reddogrw
without WL this game would get super boring, super quick

Fwiw the suggestion in OP doesn't remove WL (still one top league, can be branded as WL or Moon League or whatever).

It just fixes the other leagues below it which ALWAYS become a CPU cesspool since the # of plateau teams that are human and non-worthless is a dynamic changing number, but to this point we've had a static league structure which at most fits GLB's userbase for 1-2 seasons and is a shit-fest all other seasons.

Originally posted by King of Bling
I like the WL goal and for those who don't, OK. To have a top league to shoot for, is a big part of why this game has lasted 15 years! The structure of the league system was very successful. Why change what has been a bell weather feature?

For changes, fewer NattyPro leagues, say 2 or 3 as opposed to 4 might be warranted depending on how things play out the next few seasons. Wholesale changes like the ones being tossed around, could be experimented with in GLB2. Then those who preferred that style, could go there and play to their hearts content; Kind of how Casual and Pee Wee have their followings now.



Hey Kobber, not sure if you're talking specifically to the OP, or if you're responding to TJ's message. I assume you're responding to TJ, but just to clarify in case you are targeting the OP.

The proposal in the OP (1-wide ladder) keeps the "1 top league" aka "World League" in-tact. The problem with how things have been done historically, is that with a static league structure you have...

(A) Way too big of a talent jump when going from a top17 league or top9 or top5 league league into a top1 league

(B) It can only actually fits your userbase for a very short period of time, since the # of plateau teams changes constantly, so having a static unchanging league structure means you constantly have real life YEARS waiting for Bort to do his next condense/resort.

And now you're suggesting a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. But what happens when the season 100 plateau teams still exist along with teams created s101 -> s106. Why should that have the same league structure? It's not sustainable or healthy and necessitates the CPU wasteland no one enjoys in any way.


We can effectively group the top 12 teams, then the 13th to 24th teams, then the 25th to 36th teams, and so on. This gives them a spot to promote to the league they most deserve to be competitive in. And it means we don't have to worry about the expanding/contracting userbase leading to a structure that is a CPU hellhole.

My suggested structure can also be thought of as...
Tier 1 = World League
Tier 2 = Natty Pro #1
Tier 3 = Natty Pro #2
Tier 4 = Natty Pro #3

But there's an inherent design to group like-talent and give stepping stones on the way to world league, but having a 1-wide ladder.

Further...

Bye weeks make people care about the regular season more.
6 playoff teams instead of 8 makes playoffs harder = care about regular season more.
And bottom 2 teams being double-demoted = incentive for non-playoff teams to try to not be the worst teams.

Whereas historical is #1 seed = #8 seed with no advantage, so who cares. And the 4 non-playoff WL teams get the same demotion so who cares.

That’s what we have atm
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/announcement.pl?id=938

There will always need to be a WL or most of the Top Coordinators in this game would probably leave and I think that would be the end of the Game TBH. I know Wise and others in the WL have basically said as much. However, I personally like how the WL last was and see no real need to restructure that just because we can. Will that really make it better than it was? I personally don't think so, but that is just my opinion. However, I do agree with the rest of the OP as nobody I know likes/wants to play CPU teams where the real Season doesn't start until the Playoffs. However, any League restructuring has to be dynamic and not static so it can be adjustable to what is going on in the Leagues themselves at that time. That is the only way this will be fixed in the long term.

Wise, curious if you've thought about some of the unintended consequences of the double jumps. A double jump up from T5 (Team A - Possibly an all lvl 40-50's team) into T3 will be met with the double jump down from T1 former WL teams. Regardless of how good that team is, there's a good possibility that Team A drops down to T4 when the next season is finished and is now super high-leveled for T4. They might be able to jump back to T2 next, but it might have been easier to say T5 -> T4 -> T3, which is likely where they'll end up anyway.

Just thinking with the accelerated builds it's possible there are some wildly different swings in levels and your system is really designed for if all players/teams are the same level and we're only grouping based on results. (Plus I don't think you can convince me in a competitive season that the team that finishes 11th in T1 is REALLY supposed to be in the grouping of teams between #25-36 for the next season)

I would be much more in favor of the proposal if there were slightly less 'big-jumps' and more teams moving up and down steadily. At the very least towards the top, where we now have an expanded plateau. No need to mix those teams in with the under-leveled.

Personally I've always been in favor of a promotion tree type of model where each level has 2 levels below it:
-------WL-------
---NP---NP----
RP-RP-RP-RP

But either way, I'm in favor of the playoff byes and the slimming of the top tiers, whatever that looks like.

Originally posted by Mauler
There will always need to be a WL or most of the Top Coordinators in this game would probably leave and I think that would be the end of the Game.

I don't disagree with this, but what if instead of an entire league it was the WL tournament, or if teams could be in 2 leagues? That's how GLB2 does it. Ladder games I think they're called.

Maybe do Natty games on odd days, and WL games on even days.

The lower tiers have to be as good as possible so that different teams will have a chance to be forged in failure, to get good.

Eventually you world leaguers are going to get sick of playing with yourselves every season and having multiple teams with the same coordinators. Then the game is going to die anyway.

Originally posted by robponce
Wise, curious if you've thought about some of the unintended consequences of the double jumps. A double jump up from T5 (Team A - Possibly an all lvl 40-50's team) into T3 will be met with the double jump down from T1 former WL teams. Regardless of how good that team is, there's a good possibility that Team A drops down to T4 when the next season is finished and is now super high-leveled for T4. They might be able to jump back to T2 next, but it might have been easier to say T5 -> T4 -> T3, which is likely where they'll end up anyway.

Just thinking with the accelerated builds it's possible there are some wildly different swings in levels and your system is really designed for if all players/teams are the same level and we're only grouping based on results. (Plus I don't think you can convince me in a competitive season that the team that finishes 11th in T1 is REALLY supposed to be in the grouping of teams between #25-36 for the next season)

I would be much more in favor of the proposal if there were slightly less 'big-jumps' and more teams moving up and down steadily. At the very least towards the top, where we now have an expanded plateau. No need to mix those teams in with the under-leveled.

Personally I've always been in favor of a promotion tree type of model where each level has 2 levels below it:
-------WL-------
---NP---NP----
RP-RP-RP-RP

But either way, I'm in favor of the playoff byes and the slimming of the top tiers, whatever that looks like.

His plan is for after teams reach plateau age so they would all be the same level

Originally posted by Kenshinzen
That’s what we have atm
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/announcement.pl?id=938

A single d41 sort is not sufficient. It only sorts out CPU owned teams, and they have no idea if human teams will be filled.

A d44 sort is needed that knocks down CPU owned teams as well as all human owned teams that are effectively CPU/INCOMPLETE (less than 40 human dots is my suggested cutoff)

It makes no sense to not demote empty or incomplete human teams and keep them in high leagues ruining fun/stats.

Originally posted by RyanCane26
His plan is for after teams reach plateau age so they would all be the same level

Correct, the OP is meant for only plateau dots. Obviously the non-plateau aged dots should each get their own league tiers.

Love the idea of a second sort moving down the incomplete teams, or at the very least consolidating them together instead of sprinkled through all the leagues. They're essentially worse than CPU squads, due to the penalties inflicted. We were already seeing 300+ blowouts in rookie, and that's only going to get worse as the dots get older.

Originally posted by Brewnoe
Love the idea of a second sort moving down the incomplete teams, or at the very least consolidating them together instead of sprinkled through all the leagues. They're essentially worse than CPU squads, due to the penalties inflicted. We were already seeing 300+ blowouts in rookie, and that's only going to get worse as the dots get older.

Agreed. And a d44 re-sort (tagging non-complete human teams along with CPU teams) does exactly this.

I get that on d41 it's challenging since you don't know if a human owned team will fill, but by d44 you absolutely know what teams will be complete vs 255-0 crapfests.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
I don't disagree with this, but what if instead of an entire league it was the WL tournament, or if teams could be in 2 leagues? That's how GLB2 does it. Ladder games I think they're called.

Maybe do Natty games on odd days, and WL games on even days.

The lower tiers have to be as good as possible so that different teams will have a chance to be forged in failure, to get good.

Eventually you world leaguers are going to get sick of playing with yourselves every season and having multiple teams with the same coordinators. Then the game is going to die anyway.



WL itself isn't actually a problem, its all the leagues below it that are historically CPU or non-competitive shit-fests that are the problem which leans to non-WL at plateau not being much fun. And the playoff structure makes the regular season generally less fun then it should be in every league (since 66% of teams make the playoffs, and there's no #1 seed advantage)

Originally posted by To quote my own OP

Issues with prior plateau league structure:
1. Too many leagues (such that all non-WL leagues had multiple CPU teams).

2. 4 Natty Pro into 1 WL structure was a large skill jump so teams often dominated Natty Pro then got wiped into WL. Agents don't enjoy this environment and have no real time or chance to learn and improve.

3. No one wants to play CPU's, so why do so many CPU teams have to exist in human leagues, making everyone unhappy?

4.The prior league structure was STATIC, so aside from it being manually changed every 40 seasons, it was incapable of perfectly fitting the teams that exist.

5. All playoff teams had no advantage (since homefield and bye weeks don't exist) so with a crazy 67% of teams making the playoffs, the difference between the #1 seed and the #8 seed did not matter. This meant less regular season tryhards for a lot of teams, since there was no advantage, making the game less engaging besides the playoffs.


While some of your suggestions in this thread are interesting, none of them actually address any of these issues. We already had the WL/Pro Tournament in GLB1 as a side thing to league play. Generally I think most here are not looking to borrow anything from GLB2.

Originally posted by Mauler
There will always need to be a WL or most of the Top Coordinators in this game would probably leave and I think that would be the end of the Game TBH. I know Wise and others in the WL have basically said as much. However, I personally like how the WL last was and see no real need to restructure that just because we can. Will that really make it better than it was? I personally don't think so, but that is just my opinion. However, I do agree with the rest of the OP as nobody I know likes/wants to play CPU teams where the real Season doesn't start until the Playoffs. However, any League restructuring has to be dynamic and not static so it can be adjustable to what is going on in the Leagues themselves at that time. That is the only way this will be fixed in the long term.

my question is why is a 12 team league more important than a 24ish team tournament of all the top teams? wl is 6 teams cemented in place, 6 team slots that in all reality, barely change, with 4 teams usually bouncing right back in the next season after demoting, and 2 teams that are one and done..

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Agreed. And a d44 re-sort (tagging non-complete human teams along with CPU teams) does exactly this.

I get that on d41 it's challenging since you don't know if a human owned team will fill, but by d44 you absolutely know what teams will be complete vs 255-0 crapfests.

So we would need at least... say... 5 different leagues to do this?

#1. All boosters (those that boost early and often and always).
#2. Regular boosters (those that do early boosts bot won't use seasonal boosts until end of season.
#3. Non-boosters (those that do NOT early boost and won't boost until end of season.
#4. The craptastic league for all those teams that have two or more of all those different types of 'boosters' therefore all different levels of dots.
#5 CPU teams.

Marauders would've been in league 4 with that sort ... Don't see the need for that personally? I'd honestly be happy with just adding one step to the current sort:

1) Mostly/all human dot teams (40+)
2) Human owned, but mostly CPU
3) CPU teams

First sort Bort will already try to address separating 1+3, but it could have as many as 15 CPU squads built up before it'll actually do ... anything.

Adding 2+3 together into the lowest leagues, to get the others all sorted together in 1, would give us more meaningful games per season. As it is, there were anywhere from 2-6 empty or nearly empty squads in every league this past season. Just seems like low hanging fruit to consolidate those together and let everyone else have the more competitive games they want?

(And those teams that have 6-7 offensive dots and nothing else, probably would be happier beating up on CPUs and other 'nearly empties' anyways?)