Warrior General Games

Originally posted by risico
Could it be that the dedicated return man has the Special Teamer VA, giving him +15% to all attributes for that play, while the SS doesn't?



Who cares 15 special teamer isn't making him avoid blocks like that, you get it?
And not having 15 special team won't just make smoke run into a pancake. keep up.

Originally posted by risico
Could it be that the dedicated return man has the Special Teamer VA, giving him +15% to all attributes for that play, while the SS doesn't?



SS has 5 in special teamer. So that's a 10% bonus difference there.
I'll go ahead and open both the builds for the hell of it.

CB is on super elusive/Wrap Up, SS is on 50 elusive/Power.
Everything else is exactly the same as far as tactics.

Originally posted by Underdawg08
Who cares 15 special teamer isn't making him avoid blocks like that, you get it?
And not having 15 special team won't just make smoke run into a pancake. keep up.

10% difference in bonuses to all attributes may make players play a bit differently. keep up.

That returner is going to have more speed, agility, and vision than the SS all because of special teamer. Is it really that surprising that he has better acceleration?

Also, you may want to try and avoid shifting the goalposts, though that may be hard for you. I thought this discussion was about the way agility relates to acceleration, not avoiding blocks...

Originally posted by The Fromunda Cheeseheads
the problem with that was that you did those experiments many seasons ago. im not arguing with the results of them, just that they might be outdated. DigitalDaggers last update was 5 seasons ago. If you did the test again (which im doubting you will) the results might be different. they also might not, but all of this argument hinges on your tests done many seasons ago in a game that changed several times since then. also, if Underdawgs is spreading tons of misinformation, then GLB itself is too. with that being said, why in the world are you playing this game full of misinformation?
The results in question are not outdated, as I have built numerous players since then and see the same type of results. Nothing has been changed in regards to the relationship between speed & agility for many, many seasons. Furthermore, I do these tests precisely because I want to know things for certain instead of just guessing what may or may not be accurate. I also share that information publicly because I am a generally helpful guy, even if the people in question are so dense that they won't accept it. Whether or not you choose to benefit from my efforts is out of my control and something I'm not really concerned about.



Originally posted by tautology
Smoke weighs significantly more which is what slows him down.
That's actually not accurate either. I also did tests a couple of seasons ago about the relationship between speed & weight. What I found is that a 220lb HB and a 192lb HB with the same amount in speed, agility, & stamina will hit exactly the same top speed at each level (although it's possible that weight may affect acceleration, as that's harder to compare). Last season I also tested to see if different positions had different maximums by comparing a 180lb CB and 180 HB with identical amounts of speed, agility, & stamina. They also hit the same maximums. Meanwhile we do know that a 260lb DE with 100 speed will run slower than a 200lb HB with 100 speed, so the prevailing theory at this point is either that positions are grouped or that weights are grouped (180-220, 221-250, 251-280, 281-310, etc), and that those groupings affect maximum speed.

Originally posted by
I am a fan of agility, don't get me wrong...but the benefits is has have less to do with acceleration and speed ratios than with lateral movement, block avoidance and quick reactions.
Absolutely correct. Agility is hugely valuable for certain things, but you can accelerate just fine without it.

Originally posted by jdbolick
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Originally posted by tautology

Smoke weighs significantly more which is what slows him down.

That's actually not accurate either. I also did tests a couple of seasons ago about the relationship between speed & weight. What I found is that a 220lb HB and a 192lb HB with the same amount in speed, agility, & stamina will hit exactly the same top speed at each level (although it's possible that weight may affect acceleration, as that's harder to compare). Last season I also tested to see if different positions had different maximums by comparing a 180lb CB and 180 HB with identical amounts of speed, agility, & stamina. They also hit the same maximums. Meanwhile we do know that a 260lb DE with 100 speed will run slower than a 200lb HB with 100 speed, so the prevailing theory at this point is either that positions are grouped or that weights are grouped (180-220, 221-250, 251-280, 281-310, etc), and that those groupings affect maximum speed.



The 180-220 group is clearly subdivided further. Try 180 vs 219.

Originally posted by jdbolick
The results in question are not outdated, as I have built numerous players since then and see the same type of results. Nothing has been changed in regards to the relationship between speed & agility for many, many seasons. Furthermore, I do these tests precisely because I want to know things for certain instead of just guessing what may or may not be accurate. I also share that information publicly because I am a generally helpful guy, even if the people in question are so dense that they won't accept it. Whether or not you choose to benefit from my efforts is out of my control and something I'm not really concerned about.


however nice a guy you think you are, your reputation for sanctimonious superiority kills any message you think is beneficial to others. it's not like Underdawgs has ever posted anything that wasn't insulting, but resorting to the same tactics doesnt validate a message. when i cited something from wiki that vaguely contradicts your explanation, you attack the source saying it is flawed/false/outdated and you back that up with personal tests done on your behalf 'many seasons ago' and it is filled with further insulting snarks. a non-official person in this game purporting their information as in-arguably correct and insulting anyone else's efforts at debunking it will never really convince others of it's validity. while it is a guarantee that you will respond to this, this conversation is over for me. you will get the satisfaction of the last word but that is it.

you are a very solid player with a very solid history in the game, but your methods of conveying help/truth fall on deaf ears.

Your main mistake was citing something from GLB wiki as being accurate, specifically a quote from an admin.

How Bort and DD say the sim works and how the sim actually works are 2 entirely different things.

Originally posted by tautology
Not sure what the topic at hand is anymore...agility, speed and acceleration?

If so:

Speed as high as you can get it, agility at 74-78, 12+ in First Step is about your best bet for straight line acceleration. If you want to make cuts, get QC to 11 or so. If you need to avoid blocks, make fakes or spins, deflect passes, or make a lot of lateral movement (like a LB) then you want agility significantly higher regardless of your speed.





it isnt about specific numbers, it was started with a quick, short claim that agility = acceleration by TheGreatAus and devolved from there. jdbolick says it is completely wrong, underdawg says it is right and i posted a link to the GLBWiki page that says nothing of speed and acceleration being related (doenst mean it isnt, just doesnt say anything in the speed description) and that agility helps your acceleration. jdbolick's argument came from his personal tests that even at 3:1 ratio you can achieve max speed as the reasoning why they agility doesnt = acceleration. Underdawg had an argument but it was mostly citing past players and past seasons. i wasnt really arguing one way or another, i just posted what an official game claim was with the wiki page. that turned into a less than respectable argument. i'm hoping for another voice in here other than jd's and under's and since you are quite the GLB fixture, i thought you might have a different kind of ex[lanation..

Originally posted by risico
Your main mistake was citing something from GLB wiki as being accurate, specifically a quote from an admin.

How Bort and DD say the sim works and how the sim actually works are 2 entirely different things.

that's pretty much going to be confirmation why i wont be around after this season. the game is really much less fun than it used to be for me.

Originally posted by The Fromunda Cheeseheads
however nice a guy you think you are, your reputation for sanctimonious superiority kills any message you think is beneficial to others.


Son, we play on a game that has forums, and those forums have to be monitored by agents with knowledge. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Cheesehead? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for those posters, and you curse my tone. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That hurting their feelings, while tragic, probably makes the game better. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes the game better. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on these forums, you need me on these forums. We use words like honesty, data, truth. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending the facts. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who builds his dots under the blanket of the very information that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you spend some flex, and run some tests of your own. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

You f@#kin' people. You have no idea how to defend a sim. All you did was weaken an online game today,jdbolick. That's all you did. You put people's dot's in danger. Sweet dreams, son.






































Nicholson rocks

i like the turn this thread has taken. one of the movies i stop what i'm doing to watch until the end whenever i find it on tv

Originally posted by risico
10% difference in bonuses to all attributes may make players play a bit differently. keep up.

That returner is going to have more speed, agility, and vision than the SS all because of special teamer. Is it really that surprising that he has better acceleration?

Also, you may want to try and avoid shifting the goalposts, though that may be hard for you. I thought this discussion was about the way agility relates to acceleration, not avoiding blocks...

you may want to actually look at the builds before you state which one has more speed after the buffs.

Originally posted by Homage
you may want to actually look at the builds before you state which one has more speed after the buffs.

You're right, doh.

Though I would say the difference from added EQ is almost completely canceled by the difference in weight.

Originally posted by jdbolick

Read this thread, please: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4226920 Also, you really shouldn't be giving anyone GLB advice if you don't know this basic stuff.

Ok, now youre just being a dick (you actually had points before), or you havent read this thread. At many points, maybe not in this forum thread specifically, I have stated that First step and quick cut will both be far more valuable than agility in terms of acceleration, provided that agility is at a certain minimal level (probably 68 minimum). At those points, it is also more valuable in terms of SP value to invest in them. Also, I have even stated HOW agility and speed are linked. Higher speed=higher acceleration. Higher agility will allow you to reach that speed faster, not sure how you can refute that. And there IS a plateau that exists, though the acceleration does not level off. In fact, with DE's that have insanely high agility, they have bursts of acceleration that will take them PAST their top speed, as words written by Bort. So yes, agility does factor in. Weight factors in as well, sure, but probably not as much as other factors (FS, QC, agility) If you really think that I havent given this crap my own thought, due mainly to my own experiences with a juke/speed based WR, you are wrong. I did those analyses way before DB's speed script came out and came to the same conclusions you did.

Everything Cheesehead has said is right, you sully your own message with the acid laced messages you spew. Some of the things you say are helpful maybe, but only after you have to get sift through a giant heaping pile of sarcasm and tripe. I am going to guess that you get the kahunas to write your ascerbic monotribes only because you are behind a computer screen; I can guarantee you wouldnt have the balls to critique anything like this in person, and if you do, you are likely perceived as an asshole by your peers. It may be good if you are on American Idol, but everywhere else in the world, there are social graces that accompany teaching, which this thread was initally about. Maybe you should try out for Tool Academy and stop posting or reevaluate what you say.

Edit: I also read the thread, and maybe you didnt, but Fromunda schooled your ass.