Warrior General Games

I had this conversation on AIM with Staz, and felt like it had some pretty good Q&A in it that a lot of people would like to see. None of it is really things that haven't been answered in other various topics, but it does put it all together in one spot.

I tried to cut out as much of the "fluff" as possible and give it a little better formatting. We're still talking now so I'll probably add some more later.

r8: i'm looking at those formulas you were talking about now, I definitely like the idea behind it
r8: right now our focus is on the OT/DE interaction, and on doing something about Fumbles
r8: then there's a few other small lingering problems to wrap up, and we can start focusing on next season's upgrades
r8: I definitely want to bring up the weight thing again, as well as stadium upgrades, and the OPC
r8: I keep meaning to make a "looking ahead" type post, but every time I go to do it another big, more important issue pops up
r8: I figured we'll probably start looking ahead towards the next upgrades sometime around day 10
Staz: And for the OT/DE issue, has agility come into question? Currently, a 70 agility OT can effectively shut down a 100 agility DE. In real life, foot work is HUGE on the edges, especially against a fast DE. That kick step, or whatever they call it, can really make or break an OT
r8: the idea there is two fold, one is already uploaded via the QB vision check thing
r8: secondly, the basic problem is that the DE has a roll chance to break the block, but the OT almost immediately reengages the block
Staz: Ah, that does seem to be an issue. I thought I read something about balance on blocking?
r8: so, Bort has put in a small "stun" effect that has a chance to stun the OT for a few ticks, giving the DE a chance to get around them
r8: when he first put it in it definitely worked, it was actually far too strong, the two teams in his test combined for like 40 sacks lol
Staz: lol Yeah, that'd piss some people off
r8: so now we're just testing it and trying to fine-tune it so it isn't quite so ridiculous
Staz: So it basically just causes the OT to pause momentarily, giving the DE a "free pass", so to speak?
r8: it's down to about getting a sack on 12% of passing plays
r8: which some of us, myself included, argue is still a bit too high
r8: basically, yeah
r8: but the pause isn't THAT long
Staz: I agree. That's about 6 sacks for a pass happy offense
r8: the OT still has a chance to reengage
r8: but it's long enough that the DE usually at least has a better shot
Staz: Personally, I'd like to see agility play a bigger part. If the DE sheds a block, or powers into a lineman, and knocks him "off balance", there should be a reduction to strength, and blocking (the amount depends on how "off balance" he is)
Staz: Then, agility can play a roll in determining how quickly he can recover, or prevent the off balance to begin with?
r8: yeah, that is part of it as well
r8: if you watch in the replays sometimes the "shock" will actually knock the OT off balance a bit
r8: right, you basically said it
Staz: Well, that's definitely something I can agree with
r8: we tested it with low agility OTs (30-40) and they did give up more sacks
r8: which is what we want
r8: also tested it with low strength/vision DEs (30-40 again) and they didn't get as many sacks, which is also what we want
Staz: I haven't looked through the test server in a while, but did you test against a few types of DEs? Power, Agility and Speed based?
r8: yup yup
r8: it's all looking pretty good to me
Staz: Yeah, as an OC, I do think 12% is too high, but as a logical individual, I'd be content with 6-8% on evenly matched players
r8: someone ran the numbers and the NFL typically has between 6-7% sacks on passing plays
Staz: So, I'm a prophet.
r8: lmao, something like that
Staz: The one thing that will cause problems is great DEs vs crappy OTs...
r8: well then, that should happen
Staz: Just like when people whined about broken tackles, and now fumbles. If they don't have the build, they seem to want things to be nerfed so they can feel better about themselves.
r8: basically yeah
r8: there are some DE owners who are complaining about their DEs not doing anything that only have 30 strength and 30 vision
r8: and, tbh, they deserve to do bad
Staz: Definitely agree. That's like asking a CB to be a great edge rusher

Staz: Speaking of QB. Has Bort thought of the depth of drops? Seems like QBs just do the same thing every time. I'd like to see an option to include 3 and 5 step drops
r8: I'd like to see that as an option in the OPC, and am going to suggest it. We'll see what happens from there.

Staz: So, if the balance issue is being worked on, and the QB release times are more "realistic", are there any other changes in blocking vs defender interactions as a whole?
r8: there's a few little things that we're looking at in terms of logic, nothing huge though
Staz: Lineman 'communication' needs work. Of course, the thing I've got in mind would require some changes on multiple fronts, though
r8: yeah, the sim isn't quite that smart yet
r8: it's tough, but we have to remember that everything is still really just a mathematical simulation, based on formulas and numbers
r8: the players don't actually "think" at all
Staz: It could be, if we had more than 1.5 coders :-)
Staz: Yeah, I do forget that some times.
r8: well, not really, creating an AI at all is extremely difficult, much less an AI that can handle something as complex as football
Staz: Well, I don't expect things to be perfect. You'll never be able to match the human mind in a game like football with a simple server
r8: yeah, football is incredibly complex
r8: the fact that Bort even has the sim working like it is blows my mind
Staz: But, having defenders creep up on a blitz, and linemen "recognizing" it, and changing their scheme to pick up the defender would be an interesting thing to see
Staz: I think the addition of some pre snap reads and movement would give a whole other dimension to this game. Would also bring about plenty of problems.
r8: pre-snap reads, audibles, players in motion, all of these things are things we'd all love to put in the game
r8: but the fact is that defenses simply aren't ready for it
Staz: Well, motion could be simple, I think? Man coverage, just have the player follow his man. Of course, the offense would still have to follow the alignment rules.
Staz: The one thing I'd be happy to see, is defenders sort of "creeping up" on a blitz. Rarely do you see a guy standing with his shoulder square to the line when he's about to come heavy
Staz: Audibles, I don't think those will be possible with the way the game is currently set up. That would be INCREDIBLY detailed and time consuming
r8: I think Bort also mentioned something before about pre-snap motion not being possible because of the way the sim calculates movement after the snap
r8: it's not out of the question for the future, but it'll be awhile

tl;dr

Thanks very much for this - as a former offensive/defensive lineman and coach, I've long been worried that not enough true football understanding has gone into certain interactions in the sim - mainly along the line of scrimmage. I don't know who staz is, but I feel much better about the game mechanics if he's influencing them - he clearly knows his stuff.

I've also coached the offense/offensive line at the high school level, so you are not alone

VenomCoach is also a tester, and he's one of those guys that's probably forgotten more about football then I know.

Well anything that gives the defense a chance is always an improvement...

This is good thanks r8/staz.

my thoughts...

the 6-7% number on sacks in the NFL - if your talkin realisim dont forget how often a QB throws the ball away or into the ground tuck rule style or flips it just past the line at the last second, that dosent happen in GLB so IMO on top of that 6-7% its really nessacery to consider how much bigger that number would be if you take into account plays that are stopped by pressure without recording a sack.

I agree that many of the people with influence on this game lack real, true and extensive football knowledge. the background of those with influence should include people with a great knowledge of either football or coding - ideally both (if that exists). How many changes in this game have seemed to be more to appease users/influential peoples whims, as opposed to making things more like real football? (id say 4 out of 5).

If LBs have to have all their attributes real high not to miss tackles AND be able to keep up with HBs AND play good pass D, then ball carriers should not get any favors at all in meeting the requirement to not fumble a lot.

The talk about "off balance" - rember that code theroy i talked about for broken tackles r8? something like that could work all over the place.

Finally, as far as the discussion of this game goes, i dont understand why some realisim arguments get shot down immediatly while others are considered. I make realisim arguments all the time (usually in D's favor - i.e. broken tackle numbers, LB speed, QBs ability to find open man, cb behavior, etc.) and they always get dismissed, but when it comes to something like sacks it has to be in line with the NFL percentage of sacks. I dont know can someone explain that to me?

Originally posted by r8

Staz: Just like when people whined about broken tackles, and now fumbles. If they don't have the build, they seem to want things to be nerfed so they can feel better about themselves.
r8: basically yeah
r8: there are some DE owners who are complaining about their DEs not doing anything that only have 30 strength and 30 vision
r8: and, tbh, they deserve to do bad
Staz: Definitely agree. That's like asking a CB to be a great edge rusher


agree to 100%

now...with thede/ot situation.... 12% would be nice, but ill settle for 8%....1 sack every 12 passing plays, and thats against guys your level and just including the right side...meaning up the middle and lde will end up adding a few more sacks them selfs....

for a while, ive been talking about depth drop with the quarterbacks, and even have a penalty with a quarterback that throws the ball while he is still backing up, which i see a whole lot in the sim.

Originally posted by odg62

Finally, as far as the discussion of this game goes, i dont understand why some realisim arguments get shot down immediatly while others are considered. I make realisim arguments all the time (usually in D's favor - i.e. broken tackle numbers, LB speed, QBs ability to find open man, cb behavior, etc.) and they always get dismissed, but when it comes to something like sacks it has to be in line with the NFL percentage of sacks. I dont know can someone explain that to me?

also agree with, even though my post is just looking to settle... haha

Also about the audibles I think that would be tough to implement because the defense would need a chance to audible as well. Then the teams would just get into a never ending audible battle. And I don't think the time limit thing would work because that would be a matter of luck not skill of who would get the last chance at an audible.

Some of the other things sound nice, fixing the Pass blocking is huge! But at least its getting worked on. I think something should be done about player space and what not. Seems like HBs can fit in space very well while tacklers have a hard time maneuvering without getting blocked or knocked down.

Originally posted by odg62
This is good thanks r8/staz.

my thoughts...

the 6-7% number on sacks in the NFL - if your talkin realisim dont forget how often a QB throws the ball away or into the ground tuck rule style or flips it just past the line at the last second, that dosent happen in GLB so IMO on top of that 6-7% its really nessacery to consider how much bigger that number would be if you take into account plays that are stopped by pressure without recording a sack.

I agree that many of the people with influence on this game lack real, true and extensive football knowledge. the background of those with influence should include people with a great knowledge of either football or coding - ideally both (if that exists). How many changes in this game have seemed to be more to appease users/influential peoples whims, as opposed to making things more like real football? (id say 4 out of 5).

If LBs have to have all their attributes real high not to miss tackles AND be able to keep up with HBs AND play good pass D, then ball carriers should not get any favors at all in meeting the requirement to not fumble a lot.

The talk about "off balance" - rember that code theroy i talked about for broken tackles r8? something like that could work all over the place.

Finally, as far as the discussion of this game goes, i dont understand why some realisim arguments get shot down immediatly while others are considered. I make realisim arguments all the time (usually in D's favor - i.e. broken tackle numbers, LB speed, QBs ability to find open man, cb behavior, etc.) and they always get dismissed, but when it comes to something like sacks it has to be in line with the NFL percentage of sacks. I dont know can someone explain that to me?


Good post. I hate it when they look to replicate exact numbers or percentages (they only ever even talk about this for DEs, BTW). IMO the testers should take live players from top teams and pit them against each other to find the right balance. They do not even need to know the builds themselves, they could talk to great/respected team owners (people like Havov, CoachV, Painmaker, Gart etc) and ask them for top builds from their teams, then test those and fine tune the sim.

Originally posted by odg62
This is good thanks r8/staz.

my thoughts...

the 6-7% number on sacks in the NFL - if your talkin realisim dont forget how often a QB throws the ball away or into the ground tuck rule style or flips it just past the line at the last second, that dosent happen in GLB so IMO on top of that 6-7% its really nessacery to consider how much bigger that number would be if you take into account plays that are stopped by pressure without recording a sack.

Good point. Making pressure more of a factor in the game should be a priority as well. Hurries should cause more errant throws. Having the pocket collapse and having a bunch of 6'5 guys standing in your face should hinder some of your throwing lanes. I also think holding should come into play if you don't have enough agility to stay in front of your man, but that's just me . There are a lot of little nuances to the passing game that I'm sure could be coded in some fashion or another.

I agree that many of the people with influence on this game lack real, true and extensive football knowledge. the background of those with influence should include people with a great knowledge of either football or coding - ideally both (if that exists). How many changes in this game have seemed to be more to appease users/influential peoples whims, as opposed to making things more like real football? (id say 4 out of 5).

Again, I'd agree. I understand this is a game, and in order to maintain the customer base, you've got to keep the customers happy. However, quite a few of the changes are very basic and fundamentally flawed. Balance should have been coded from the beginning, and weight shouldn't have been more or less irrelevant. I've made suggestions regarding the weight being a factor, and later on you mention a suggestion about balance. Those two could definitely be made to go hand in hand as well.

If LBs have to have all their attributes real high not to miss tackles AND be able to keep up with HBs AND play good pass D, then ball carriers should not get any favors at all in meeting the requirement to not fumble a lot.

This is why I think "schemes" need to be encouraged, and changes made to allow them. Currently, a slow LB is a liability, and doesn't offer much apparent help in terms of shutting down the run game. It's all about the swarm tactic these days. Ray Lewis is a pretty mobile LB, but he wasn't a Derrick Brooks. He was more of the "Stay the hell out of my house. You bring the rock, I bring the pain," type, and he made running backs and QBs pay. Morale dropped, I'm sure those RBs took a beating, but it doesn't seem like a powerful LB can do that in this game. So where is the incentive to use those morale reducing SAs and go away from the "normal" LB build?

The talk about "off balance" - rember that code theroy i talked about for broken tackles r8? something like that could work all over the place.

Finally, as far as the discussion of this game goes, i dont understand why some realisim arguments get shot down immediatly while others are considered. I make realisim arguments all the time (usually in D's favor - i.e. broken tackle numbers, LB speed, QBs ability to find open man, cb behavior, etc.) and they always get dismissed, but when it comes to something like sacks it has to be in line with the NFL percentage of sacks. I dont know can someone explain that to me?

I think it's all a matter of how drastic of a change it would be. There seems to be a fear of HUGE changes to the sim, despite the need for it. I'd much rather sit out for a 20 day offseason, knowing that when the game was back online there would be a drastically overhauled sim with a much more realistic approach, than to have 5-6 days with a few band aids applied. Hell, I'd be willing to start this game over from scratch. Allow players to choose whether to keep their player, or retire them for a full refund. Then, restart the league structures. Restart the teams, restart EVERYTHING. Refunds would have to be worked out to satisfy those who JUST got teams, or perhaps team ownership could remain, just be REDONE? IDK how that would all work out, but a drastic change shouldn't be dismissed because it's drastic. ANYTHING that makes this game more like football, in terms of the sim, should be considered.

Originally posted by stuartalan618
Also about the audibles I think that would be tough to implement because the defense would need a chance to audible as well. Then the teams would just get into a never ending audible battle. And I don't think the time limit thing would work because that would be a matter of luck not skill of who would get the last chance at an audible.

Some of the other things sound nice, fixing the Pass blocking is huge! But at least its getting worked on. I think something should be done about player space and what not. Seems like HBs can fit in space very well while tacklers have a hard time maneuvering without getting blocked or knocked down.

This is something I totally agree with. Defenders can't "squeeze" through a slot, they basically have to bounce around until the gap is big enough.

Let's not forget about DTs please. Right now penetration really only comes if the DT knocks his guy over or completely rips/swims around him. In a live game the DTs almost always make SOME penetration on passing plays. Additionally it is not too uncommon in real life for a DT to blow his man backwards off the line. Sometimes the DT can utilize this push to get to the QB, sometimes the DT loses his balance and falls over, and sometimes the blocker successfully recovers enough to steer the lineman safely past the quarterback.

I don't think the current system accounts for leverage the way it should. There should be a strength check and an agility check (possibly with blocking and vision as modifiers) to determine who gains the initial leverage and how much, and then a reroll after a few ticks to determine if either side gained or lost leverage. Whichever side has the leverage should be able to push the other player around for the most part in an equal match-up.

This is fantastic. Staz and R8 talkin' about this stuff makes my mouth water at the thought of how good this game could become after more seasons of tweaking things and adding things that need to be added for more realistic simulations.

Originally posted by the hurricane
Let's not forget about DTs please. Right now penetration really only comes if the DT knocks his guy over or completely rips/swims around him. In a live game the DTs almost always make SOME penetration on passing plays. Additionally it is not too uncommon in real life for a DT to blow his man backwards off the line. Sometimes the DT can utilize this push to get to the QB, sometimes the DT loses his balance and falls over, and sometimes the blocker successfully recovers enough to steer the lineman safely past the quarterback.

I don't think the current system accounts for leverage the way it should. There should be a strength check and an agility check (possibly with blocking and vision as modifiers) to determine who gains the initial leverage and how much, and then a reroll after a few ticks to determine if either side gained or lost leverage. Whichever side has the leverage should be able to push the other player around for the most part in an equal match-up.

exactly...i see that R8 has brought up the issue about the players weight also which is VERY important when it comes to both the offensive and defensive lines aswell. All you have to do is look at all the huge DTs in the NFL and see that weight does indeed play a big role in the games they go against lighter lineman.

This game is going to become far too complex. The DPC already causes extra busy work that wasn't required in the past, and if there are 3-5-7 step drop choices, if there is an OPC, all of this stuff is become like bizzaro world IMO. It's becoming too time consuming. The casual leagues are too casual and the regular leagues are becoming too hardcore.

As a DC, I never wanted a DPC, all I wanted was some drop down boxes inside the AI that allowed me to choose which man or zone I want each player to cover. And while there are a lot of people who enjoy being OC/DC, there aren't a lot of people who truly understand the in's-and-out's of what it actually takes to set up a quality AI script.

Last season it was really easy. I could scan through a team's offensive selection and adjust the AI options real quick. But now I have to manually create new defenses every game!

Now I suppose there will reach a point where I will have enough defensive options in my playbook where I can just select which defense I want rather than creating new ones, but I am becoming frustrated that GLB has begun focusing on unnecessary extras rather than making the sim 100% legit. Not everyone has the time, or wants to commit the time, that it is beginning to take to have a successful team.

I don't even feel confident giving people "assistant" roles because I simply don't trust very many GM's to have a quality understanding of game mechanics and sim tendencies, so the more extra's tossed into this game it just becomes more and more frustrating.

Bort seems perfectly willing to cater to those with way too much time on their hands while disregarding the casual gamer. Yes, we have the casual leagues, but as I've said on several forums -- they are too casual. I enjoy handling my AI scripts, but the whole thing is just going too far