I had this conversation on AIM with Staz, and felt like it had some pretty good Q&A in it that a lot of people would like to see. None of it is really things that haven't been answered in other various topics, but it does put it all together in one spot.
I tried to cut out as much of the "fluff" as possible and give it a little better formatting. We're still talking now so I'll probably add some more later.
r8: i'm looking at those formulas you were talking about now, I definitely like the idea behind it
r8: right now our focus is on the OT/DE interaction, and on doing something about Fumbles
r8: then there's a few other small lingering problems to wrap up, and we can start focusing on next season's upgrades
r8: I definitely want to bring up the weight thing again, as well as stadium upgrades, and the OPC
r8: I keep meaning to make a "looking ahead" type post, but every time I go to do it another big, more important issue pops up
r8: I figured we'll probably start looking ahead towards the next upgrades sometime around day 10
Staz: And for the OT/DE issue, has agility come into question? Currently, a 70 agility OT can effectively shut down a 100 agility DE. In real life, foot work is HUGE on the edges, especially against a fast DE. That kick step, or whatever they call it, can really make or break an OT
r8: the idea there is two fold, one is already uploaded via the QB vision check thing
r8: secondly, the basic problem is that the DE has a roll chance to break the block, but the OT almost immediately reengages the block
Staz: Ah, that does seem to be an issue. I thought I read something about balance on blocking?
r8: so, Bort has put in a small "stun" effect that has a chance to stun the OT for a few ticks, giving the DE a chance to get around them
r8: when he first put it in it definitely worked, it was actually far too strong, the two teams in his test combined for like 40 sacks lol
Staz: lol Yeah, that'd piss some people off
r8: so now we're just testing it and trying to fine-tune it so it isn't quite so ridiculous
Staz: So it basically just causes the OT to pause momentarily, giving the DE a "free pass", so to speak?
r8: it's down to about getting a sack on 12% of passing plays
r8: which some of us, myself included, argue is still a bit too high
r8: basically, yeah
r8: but the pause isn't THAT long
Staz: I agree. That's about 6 sacks for a pass happy offense
r8: the OT still has a chance to reengage
r8: but it's long enough that the DE usually at least has a better shot
Staz: Personally, I'd like to see agility play a bigger part. If the DE sheds a block, or powers into a lineman, and knocks him "off balance", there should be a reduction to strength, and blocking (the amount depends on how "off balance" he is)
Staz: Then, agility can play a roll in determining how quickly he can recover, or prevent the off balance to begin with?
r8: yeah, that is part of it as well
r8: if you watch in the replays sometimes the "shock" will actually knock the OT off balance a bit
r8: right, you basically said it
Staz: Well, that's definitely something I can agree with
r8: we tested it with low agility OTs (30-40) and they did give up more sacks
r8: which is what we want
r8: also tested it with low strength/vision DEs (30-40 again) and they didn't get as many sacks, which is also what we want
Staz: I haven't looked through the test server in a while, but did you test against a few types of DEs? Power, Agility and Speed based?
r8: yup yup
r8: it's all looking pretty good to me
Staz: Yeah, as an OC, I do think 12% is too high, but as a logical individual, I'd be content with 6-8% on evenly matched players
r8: someone ran the numbers and the NFL typically has between 6-7% sacks on passing plays
Staz: So, I'm a prophet.
r8: lmao, something like that
Staz: The one thing that will cause problems is great DEs vs crappy OTs...
r8: well then, that should happen
Staz: Just like when people whined about broken tackles, and now fumbles. If they don't have the build, they seem to want things to be nerfed so they can feel better about themselves.
r8: basically yeah
r8: there are some DE owners who are complaining about their DEs not doing anything that only have 30 strength and 30 vision
r8: and, tbh, they deserve to do bad
Staz: Definitely agree. That's like asking a CB to be a great edge rusher
Staz: Speaking of QB. Has Bort thought of the depth of drops? Seems like QBs just do the same thing every time. I'd like to see an option to include 3 and 5 step drops
r8: I'd like to see that as an option in the OPC, and am going to suggest it. We'll see what happens from there.
I tried to cut out as much of the "fluff" as possible and give it a little better formatting. We're still talking now so I'll probably add some more later.
r8: i'm looking at those formulas you were talking about now, I definitely like the idea behind it
r8: right now our focus is on the OT/DE interaction, and on doing something about Fumbles
r8: then there's a few other small lingering problems to wrap up, and we can start focusing on next season's upgrades
r8: I definitely want to bring up the weight thing again, as well as stadium upgrades, and the OPC
r8: I keep meaning to make a "looking ahead" type post, but every time I go to do it another big, more important issue pops up
r8: I figured we'll probably start looking ahead towards the next upgrades sometime around day 10
Staz: And for the OT/DE issue, has agility come into question? Currently, a 70 agility OT can effectively shut down a 100 agility DE. In real life, foot work is HUGE on the edges, especially against a fast DE. That kick step, or whatever they call it, can really make or break an OT
r8: the idea there is two fold, one is already uploaded via the QB vision check thing
r8: secondly, the basic problem is that the DE has a roll chance to break the block, but the OT almost immediately reengages the block
Staz: Ah, that does seem to be an issue. I thought I read something about balance on blocking?
r8: so, Bort has put in a small "stun" effect that has a chance to stun the OT for a few ticks, giving the DE a chance to get around them
r8: when he first put it in it definitely worked, it was actually far too strong, the two teams in his test combined for like 40 sacks lol
Staz: lol Yeah, that'd piss some people off
r8: so now we're just testing it and trying to fine-tune it so it isn't quite so ridiculous
Staz: So it basically just causes the OT to pause momentarily, giving the DE a "free pass", so to speak?
r8: it's down to about getting a sack on 12% of passing plays
r8: which some of us, myself included, argue is still a bit too high
r8: basically, yeah
r8: but the pause isn't THAT long
Staz: I agree. That's about 6 sacks for a pass happy offense
r8: the OT still has a chance to reengage
r8: but it's long enough that the DE usually at least has a better shot
Staz: Personally, I'd like to see agility play a bigger part. If the DE sheds a block, or powers into a lineman, and knocks him "off balance", there should be a reduction to strength, and blocking (the amount depends on how "off balance" he is)
Staz: Then, agility can play a roll in determining how quickly he can recover, or prevent the off balance to begin with?
r8: yeah, that is part of it as well
r8: if you watch in the replays sometimes the "shock" will actually knock the OT off balance a bit
r8: right, you basically said it
Staz: Well, that's definitely something I can agree with
r8: we tested it with low agility OTs (30-40) and they did give up more sacks
r8: which is what we want
r8: also tested it with low strength/vision DEs (30-40 again) and they didn't get as many sacks, which is also what we want
Staz: I haven't looked through the test server in a while, but did you test against a few types of DEs? Power, Agility and Speed based?
r8: yup yup
r8: it's all looking pretty good to me
Staz: Yeah, as an OC, I do think 12% is too high, but as a logical individual, I'd be content with 6-8% on evenly matched players
r8: someone ran the numbers and the NFL typically has between 6-7% sacks on passing plays
Staz: So, I'm a prophet.
r8: lmao, something like that
Staz: The one thing that will cause problems is great DEs vs crappy OTs...
r8: well then, that should happen
Staz: Just like when people whined about broken tackles, and now fumbles. If they don't have the build, they seem to want things to be nerfed so they can feel better about themselves.
r8: basically yeah
r8: there are some DE owners who are complaining about their DEs not doing anything that only have 30 strength and 30 vision
r8: and, tbh, they deserve to do bad
Staz: Definitely agree. That's like asking a CB to be a great edge rusher
Staz: Speaking of QB. Has Bort thought of the depth of drops? Seems like QBs just do the same thing every time. I'd like to see an option to include 3 and 5 step drops
r8: I'd like to see that as an option in the OPC, and am going to suggest it. We'll see what happens from there.
Last edited Apr 27, 2009 23:15:52