Warrior General Games

Originally posted by PinTBC

Personally I'd like to see the YPC closer to 3 when equal teams are playing. That will tend to force at least one pass per set of three plays on average. I'd like to see the defense able to stop the offense if it can win 2 out of 3 downs in a series, which means that you have to be very careful when you set averages.

Then you don't want to simulate football. I do. In football, most first downs turn into other first downs. Ideally, the right defense (through tactics and personnel) can prevent that a lot of the time; but it should be like real football.

As far as "if you get your way" on it, a 4ish ypc average is pretty much what we've had starting with Season 4. If you think the variance is too small compared to real life, then that's what you should work to see changed. I think the greatly reduced "fall forward" will mean more variance-- that's what tended to guarantee gains.

All I want is as much offense as in real life (not more, just as much), so that realistic players and strategies will work as they would in real life. As much offense as in real life means about 4 ypc and about 7 ypa on passes. It also means that due to more talent variance, facing gutted teams, and more plays per game, league leaders' counting stats and average scores will be higher than real life. That's how it should be, as it's the only way that average players' stats will be like average players' stats.

If you have an average RB, you should be able to enjoy his 4.1 yard rushing average or whatever. If he's really good, it should be higher. If you have a RB averaging only 3 ypc it should be because he sucks (at least relative to the league). Most RB's shouldn't suck.

BTW - one thing that makes it easier to score in GLB than otherwise, as someone pointed out, is that more 3rd and long conversions are made in GLB. The defense's inherent advantage in knowing the play call and the distance they need to protect isn't well simulated, and I've suggested in the past a Vision bonus for defenses on 3rd down; I still support that, if you want some common ground we might share.

Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by PinTBC


Personally I'd like to see the YPC closer to 3 when equal teams are playing. That will tend to force at least one pass per set of three plays on average. I'd like to see the defense able to stop the offense if it can win 2 out of 3 downs in a series, which means that you have to be very careful when you set averages.

Then you don't want to simulate football. I do. In football, most first downs turn into other first downs. Ideally, the right defense (through tactics and personnel) can prevent that a lot of the time; but it should be like real football.



Yet another tester that doesn't understand the basic tenets of mathematics. If the defense has to win 2 out of 3 plays to stop the offense (force the offense to less than 10 yards in 3 plays), then the conversion rate in a series will average 66%, which is a pretty damned decent average, in fact it's on the high side of the NFL average.

I actually am starting to reconsider my wishes that this sim be as realistic as possible. The direction it has moved over the last three or so seasons anyways has been significantly less "fun" than any of the previous. All this driving towards the "normal" build is definitely not something that is going to improve game play. Instead of a group of people with speed cookie builds, now you end up with everyone with a "normal" cookie build, and in the long run all it did was remove the fun for those people who actually enjoy trying new things.

In the NFL a runningback will rarely carry the ball more than 30 times in a game, in GLB they do that in a half.

In 2007, Portis averaged 20.3 carries a game
In 2006, Larry Johnson averaged 26 carries a game, and pundits were claiming Edwards was going to ruin his career by using him too much.
In 2005, Shaun Alexander carried the ball 23 times......

How does that relate to this SIM? It doesn't! Just like your average YPC and YPA shouldn't because they apply to a distinctly different game. This is supposed to be a football sim, I agree, and I also believe that it should try to look and feel like the NFL. The problem you have is if you pick and choose statistics to be a design slave to, you will end up causing problems that you might not be smart enough to predict.

I would hate like hell to see a larger randomness added to the game to give people a wide enough variance to support that 4 YPC you are pushing for.

PinTBC

Originally posted by PinTBC
Originally posted by Ken1

Originally posted by PinTBC



Personally I'd like to see the YPC closer to 3 when equal teams are playing. That will tend to force at least one pass per set of three plays on average. I'd like to see the defense able to stop the offense if it can win 2 out of 3 downs in a series, which means that you have to be very careful when you set averages.

Then you don't want to simulate football. I do. In football, most first downs turn into other first downs. Ideally, the right defense (through tactics and personnel) can prevent that a lot of the time; but it should be like real football.



Yet another tester that doesn't understand the basic tenets of mathematics. If the defense has to win 2 out of 3 plays to stop the offense (force the offense to less than 10 yards in 3 plays), then the conversion rate in a series will average 66%, which is a pretty damned decent average, in fact it's on the high side of the NFL average.

I actually am starting to reconsider my wishes that this sim be as realistic as possible. The direction it has moved over the last three or so seasons anyways has been significantly less "fun" than any of the previous. All this driving towards the "normal" build is definitely not something that is going to improve game play. Instead of a group of people with speed cookie builds, now you end up with everyone with a "normal" cookie build, and in the long run all it did was remove the fun for those people who actually enjoy trying new things.

In the NFL a runningback will rarely carry the ball more than 30 times in a game, in GLB they do that in a half.

In 2007, Portis averaged 20.3 carries a game
In 2006, Larry Johnson averaged 26 carries a game, and pundits were claiming Edwards was going to ruin his career by using him too much.
In 2005, Shaun Alexander carried the ball 23 times......

How does that relate to this SIM? It doesn't! Just like your average YPC and YPA shouldn't because they apply to a distinctly different game. This is supposed to be a football sim, I agree, and I also believe that it should try to look and feel like the NFL. The problem you have is if you pick and choose statistics to be a design slave to, you will end up causing problems that you might not be smart enough to predict.

I would hate like hell to see a larger randomness added to the game to give people a wide enough variance to support that 4 YPC you are pushing for.

PinTBC

Well, those who didn't want realism mostly wanted more big, exciting plays-- tons of offense, with defense only showing up in sacks and turnovers. By wanting 3 ypc and poor passing as well, you just want a very boring game. Defenses should have a chance to win drives by stopping a team from eventually scoring-- again, though, only about as commonly as it happens in real life.

The idea is to be playing the closest we can get to real life football here, and if we're off some, I hope it's in the direction of offense (I actually think this season will be off a bit but in the defensive direction, but tolerably so), because 10-6 games are snoozers. The only thing worse than 10-6 games are the extreme blowouts that happen under any sim.

I have you some ideas of things to support within the realm of realism if you wanted things to be better for defense, from more variance in rushing yardage to fewer 3rd down conversions. If you'd really rather every game be played as if in a blizzard, I'm glad you're in a small minority.

Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by PinTBC

Originally posted by Ken1


Originally posted by PinTBC




Personally I'd like to see the YPC closer to 3 when equal teams are playing. That will tend to force at least one pass per set of three plays on average. I'd like to see the defense able to stop the offense if it can win 2 out of 3 downs in a series, which means that you have to be very careful when you set averages.

Then you don't want to simulate football. I do. In football, most first downs turn into other first downs. Ideally, the right defense (through tactics and personnel) can prevent that a lot of the time; but it should be like real football.



Yet another tester that doesn't understand the basic tenets of mathematics. If the defense has to win 2 out of 3 plays to stop the offense (force the offense to less than 10 yards in 3 plays), then the conversion rate in a series will average 66%, which is a pretty damned decent average, in fact it's on the high side of the NFL average.

I actually am starting to reconsider my wishes that this sim be as realistic as possible. The direction it has moved over the last three or so seasons anyways has been significantly less "fun" than any of the previous. All this driving towards the "normal" build is definitely not something that is going to improve game play. Instead of a group of people with speed cookie builds, now you end up with everyone with a "normal" cookie build, and in the long run all it did was remove the fun for those people who actually enjoy trying new things.

In the NFL a runningback will rarely carry the ball more than 30 times in a game, in GLB they do that in a half.

In 2007, Portis averaged 20.3 carries a game
In 2006, Larry Johnson averaged 26 carries a game, and pundits were claiming Edwards was going to ruin his career by using him too much.
In 2005, Shaun Alexander carried the ball 23 times......

How does that relate to this SIM? It doesn't! Just like your average YPC and YPA shouldn't because they apply to a distinctly different game. This is supposed to be a football sim, I agree, and I also believe that it should try to look and feel like the NFL. The problem you have is if you pick and choose statistics to be a design slave to, you will end up causing problems that you might not be smart enough to predict.

I would hate like hell to see a larger randomness added to the game to give people a wide enough variance to support that 4 YPC you are pushing for.

PinTBC

Well, those who didn't want realism mostly wanted more big, exciting plays-- tons of offense, with defense only showing up in sacks and turnovers. By wanting 3 ypc and poor passing as well, you just want a very boring game. Defenses should have a chance to win drives by stopping a team from eventually scoring-- again, though, only about as commonly as it happens in real life.

The idea is to be playing the closest we can get to real life football here, and if we're off some, I hope it's in the direction of offense (I actually think this season will be off a bit but in the defensive direction, but tolerably so), because 10-6 games are snoozers. The only thing worse than 10-6 games are the extreme blowouts that happen under any sim.

I have you some ideas of things to support within the realm of realism if you wanted things to be better for defense, from more variance in rushing yardage to fewer 3rd down conversions. If you'd really rather every game be played as if in a blizzard, I'm glad you're in a small minority.

I would like more 17-21 type games tbh.

Yeah, I'll take realism and the possibility that a defense can actually win games. I want a game closer to the NFL then college football. Defense has been the red headed stepchild of this game for most of its existence. Pretty over it.

Originally posted by Ken1

Well, those who didn't want realism mostly wanted more big, exciting plays-- tons of offense, with defense only showing up in sacks and turnovers. By wanting 3 ypc and poor passing as well, you just want a very boring game. Defenses should have a chance to win drives by stopping a team from eventually scoring-- again, though, only about as commonly as it happens in real life.

OK, you don't seem to be reading what I am saying other than grabbing a small section that you don't like, and trying to go off on it. What I WANT is a game where if the defense beats the offense twice in the first three downs, then they stand a very good chance of stopping the drive. What does that mean? It means your "average YPC" is way too high, because using that as a yardstick, if the offense wins twice, then they've already gotten a first down, and why in hell would you pass? Using the 2 out of 3 method, the conversion rate for first downs will be very close to the high side of the NFL.

Originally posted by "ken1"
The idea is to be playing the closest we can get to real life football here, and if we're off some, I hope it's in the direction of offense (I actually think this season will be off a bit but in the defensive direction, but tolerably so), because 10-6 games are snoozers. The only thing worse than 10-6 games are the extreme blowouts that happen under any sim.

Actually, I'd much prefer the 10-6 game because it would mean that two teams were closely matched, both DCs did a very good job slowing the other offense down, and whichever team manages to come through in the fourth quarter can win. But I expect you would prefer a 56 to 35 game where the game is decided by a team connecting on long passes to a wide receiver in double coverage... And the game is completely out of reach in the fourth quarter....

Originally posted by Ken1

I have you some ideas of things to support within the realm of realism if you wanted things to be better for defense, from more variance in rushing yardage to fewer 3rd down conversions. If you'd really rather every game be played as if in a blizzard, I'm glad you're in a small minority.

Bite me asshole. I am cautioning you that if you succeed in your magical 4 YPC and 8 YPC then the only way to get there AND still allow for offenses to be stopped will be to greatly allow a variation in the YPC and YPA on each singular attempt. The biggest thing this means is that you will end up having to open up the randomness on a play by play basis, and this would simply suck. If you move that average without opening up the variance, those of us who actually understand and enjoy defenses might as well go find another game. You will have College football with 60 to 30 or higher being your normal scores.

Now by the way, I was being very careful trying not to insult you, and having a valid conversation about Game design, I'm glad you were doing the same.

Yet another golden child with his own axe to grind, and not enough sense to listen to anyone that might disagree with him. Offense is only king to people who have NO understanding of the history of the NFL.

PinTBC

Originally posted by islander1
Yeah, I'll take realism and the possibility that a defense can actually win games. I want a game closer to the NFL then college football. Defense has been the red headed stepchild of this game for most of its existence. Pretty over it.

What he said.

PinTBC

Originally posted by PinTBC
Originally posted by islander1

Yeah, I'll take realism and the possibility that a defense can actually win games. I want a game closer to the NFL then college football. Defense has been the red headed stepchild of this game for most of its existence. Pretty over it.

What he said.

PinTBC


In our 97 game history, including playoffs, I believe we have allowed 30 or more points 4 times, the most being 37 in a crushing 37-35 loss.

I could be misremembering...but I don't think so. I am not sure that I would say defense hasn't been winning games...

oh yea defense can win games

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by PinTBC

Originally posted by islander1


Yeah, I'll take realism and the possibility that a defense can actually win games. I want a game closer to the NFL then college football. Defense has been the red headed stepchild of this game for most of its existence. Pretty over it.

What he said.

PinTBC


In our 97 game history, including playoffs, I believe we have allowed 30 or more points 4 times, the most being 37 in a crushing 37-35 loss.

I could be misremembering...but I don't think so. I am not sure that I would say defense hasn't been winning games...

OK, first of all, let's put this into context. Your team is in South America, and just hit Pro now. So your competition level has been pretty lame, by and large.

Secondly, taut you are an outstanding player builder, well above the typical.

Third, you are using 'giving up 30' as a parameter for good defense, and I would disagree. More like 20, at most.

Originally posted by PinTBC
Originally posted by islander1

Yeah, I'll take realism and the possibility that a defense can actually win games. I want a game closer to the NFL then college football. Defense has been the red headed stepchild of this game for most of its existence. Pretty over it.

What he said.

PinTBC

With the larger amount of plays in GLB compared to the NFL, you are going to get college like stats. You have to make plays take longer, to have less overall plays, then open a whole new can of worms with bench players.