Warrior General Games

Originally posted by PinTBC
Originally posted by bhall43

Originally posted by Modok


Ken, no offense but you have been an advocate of offense since Day 1 on the servers. Your blatant biased towards it is well known server wide. That Bort would allow you to become a tester speaks volumes on how the entire process is flawed. So pardon me if I dont buy into your theories and methods of interpretation. You havent represented yourself as someone who wants true balance.


Ken,

You are simply looking at one stat that is part of the whole, and focusing on the real game of football. This sim isn't real football, as much as some of us would love to see that. If you get your way, and the avderage yards per carry is 4, and the average yards per pass is 7, and the variances stay the way they are now, there will be no need for a defense, because it simply won't be able to stop anyone. By the way, making large variances is probably not the way to go here as the game starts getting the random feel to it, where people can't count on their players to do what they are supposed to.

I know you hated season 3 because the defenses managed to keep most offenses to reasonable season stats, but I'd say that season three was markedly more interesting to play.

PinTBC

Season 3 wasn't football. For one thing, there was no such thing as the 70 yard TD drive. One TD won the game, because they were so rare, kind of like soccer. And the TD pretty much only happened if it was set up by a turnover.

You want a mythical game in which every game is played in a blizzard. That was Season 3. People want realism.

In the NFL they average 4 ypc and 7 ypa, and defenses still stop offenses when the defense does its job. You're simply wrong that you can't stop the offense with 4 ypc. They do it in the NFL. They stop the best NFL rushing offenses that average 5 ypc. They stop the best NCAA rushing offenses that average 7 ypc.

I think your ideal is half of first downs being 3-and-outs. That's not realistic, and makes for an extremely boring sim.

NFL Varies from 30% to 50% on third downs converted. with a drive conversion rate between 55 and 70%

Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by PinTBC

Originally posted by bhall43


Originally posted by Modok



Ken, no offense but you have been an advocate of offense since Day 1 on the servers. Your blatant biased towards it is well known server wide. That Bort would allow you to become a tester speaks volumes on how the entire process is flawed. So pardon me if I dont buy into your theories and methods of interpretation. You havent represented yourself as someone who wants true balance.


Ken,

You are simply looking at one stat that is part of the whole, and focusing on the real game of football. This sim isn't real football, as much as some of us would love to see that. If you get your way, and the avderage yards per carry is 4, and the average yards per pass is 7, and the variances stay the way they are now, there will be no need for a defense, because it simply won't be able to stop anyone. By the way, making large variances is probably not the way to go here as the game starts getting the random feel to it, where people can't count on their players to do what they are supposed to.

I know you hated season 3 because the defenses managed to keep most offenses to reasonable season stats, but I'd say that season three was markedly more interesting to play.

PinTBC

Season 3 wasn't football. For one thing, there was no such thing as the 70 yard TD drive. One TD won the game, because they were so rare, kind of like soccer. And the TD pretty much only happened if it was set up by a turnover.

You want a mythical game in which every game is played in a blizzard. That was Season 3. People want realism.

In the NFL they average 4 ypc and 7 ypa, and defenses still stop offenses when the defense does its job. You're simply wrong that you can't stop the offense with 4 ypc. They do it in the NFL. They stop the best NFL rushing offenses that average 5 ypc. They stop the best NCAA rushing offenses that average 7 ypc.

I think your ideal is half of first downs being 3-and-outs. That's not realistic, and makes for an extremely boring sim.

You must be a republican to try and spin what you are spinning.....

going into the 2008 the cleveland browns were ranked #1 offensive line. sounds great right, should have done well. but see YPC doesnt mean crap cause you dont run the ball every down. had teams done 100% running plays, then im sure of 2 things.

1. defenses would have stacked the line.
2. that clevelands 3.9 YPC (stat you love so much) would have went down below 2.0 ypc.

also... another stat for ya.... teams pass for more yards then rushing. each team. every team.

Originally posted by Whatsdafus
Originally posted by Ken1

Originally posted by PinTBC


Originally posted by bhall43



Originally posted by Modok




Ken, no offense but you have been an advocate of offense since Day 1 on the servers. Your blatant biased towards it is well known server wide. That Bort would allow you to become a tester speaks volumes on how the entire process is flawed. So pardon me if I dont buy into your theories and methods of interpretation. You havent represented yourself as someone who wants true balance.


Ken,

You are simply looking at one stat that is part of the whole, and focusing on the real game of football. This sim isn't real football, as much as some of us would love to see that. If you get your way, and the avderage yards per carry is 4, and the average yards per pass is 7, and the variances stay the way they are now, there will be no need for a defense, because it simply won't be able to stop anyone. By the way, making large variances is probably not the way to go here as the game starts getting the random feel to it, where people can't count on their players to do what they are supposed to.

I know you hated season 3 because the defenses managed to keep most offenses to reasonable season stats, but I'd say that season three was markedly more interesting to play.

PinTBC

Season 3 wasn't football. For one thing, there was no such thing as the 70 yard TD drive. One TD won the game, because they were so rare, kind of like soccer. And the TD pretty much only happened if it was set up by a turnover.

You want a mythical game in which every game is played in a blizzard. That was Season 3. People want realism.

In the NFL they average 4 ypc and 7 ypa, and defenses still stop offenses when the defense does its job. You're simply wrong that you can't stop the offense with 4 ypc. They do it in the NFL. They stop the best NFL rushing offenses that average 5 ypc. They stop the best NCAA rushing offenses that average 7 ypc.

I think your ideal is half of first downs being 3-and-outs. That's not realistic, and makes for an extremely boring sim.

You must be a republican to try and spin what you are spinning.....

going into the 2008 the cleveland browns were ranked #1 offensive line. sounds great right, should have done well. but see YPC doesnt mean crap cause you dont run the ball every down. had teams done 100% running plays, then im sure of 2 things.

1. defenses would have stacked the line.
2. that clevelands 3.9 YPC (stat you love so much) would have went down below 2.0 ypc.

also... another stat for ya.... teams pass for more yards then rushing. each team. every team.


As a Browns fan , i strenously object to you pointing out our ineptitude!

I have tried to read through all this, but it's all over the place. Is there going to be some sort of summation of changes to the RUN GAME for season 9 before the pre-season games start? What actually is being added/removed/adjusted?

Originally posted by tautology
Folks,

I've said this before and it seems to fall on deaf ears...but please consider it comes from a coach who has consistently had both the best rushing game and best rushing defense in his league season after season.


The running game was barely functional in season 8, with the exception of the Strong I Slam

Every other running play could be stuffed for a loss with alarming consistency unless the HB was an absolute stud and simply broke tackles to make gains.

Functional, but barely so. And yes, this is why the slam was so prevalent...it was the only play with reliable yardage.

And even the slam could be slowed/stopped with the right defensive calls and good defensive builds...as thehazyone showed in the USAPro championship game.


I am not advocating no changes in the sim but...


The changes being made are fundamentally misdirected

This is an over-reaction that will nerf the running game globally in response to a single-play trend in season 8.


What we need is to LOOSEN UP the running game in general, and slightly nerf the specific dynamic that made the Slam a bit over-powered (and it wasn't over powered so much as it was very difficult to ever stop for a loss..every other run was FAR TOO EASILY stopped for a loss, which is why peopled stopped using them and went All -slam).

And I will say this: The D AI alone would solve the Slam problem.

From the looks of the sims I have seen, the ONLY running games that will be viable for season 9 are ones with insane powerbacks vs poor-tackling teams.

Let's not go back to season 3, please.


Spot-fucking-on. This is what I posted on our team forum after our playoff loss to the Las Vegas Gamblers:

Originally posted by Kevin Smith
Shit! Nice game plan overall, but too much 1st down passing for my (or season 8 simīs) taste. Not saying itīs what cost us, we did a great job. The playcalling was excellent on both sides of the ball, but things like this:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=470302&pbp_id=18092680
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=470302&pbp_id=18094300

make me wonder why people get upset about the strong Islam. Why not run it when great execution on this play gets ruined by shitty simcode for HB vision?

Even when the run-game seems to work, the stupid way vision works in this game was sure to mess it up.

Is there still a lag on some of those outside handoffs?

Originally posted by Ken1

Season 3 wasn't football. For one thing, there was no such thing as the 70 yard TD drive. One TD won the game, because they were so rare, kind of like soccer. And the TD pretty much only happened if it was set up by a turnover.

You want a mythical game in which every game is played in a blizzard. That was Season 3. People want realism.

In the NFL they average 4 ypc and 7 ypa, and defenses still stop offenses when the defense does its job. You're simply wrong that you can't stop the offense with 4 ypc. They do it in the NFL. They stop the best NFL rushing offenses that average 5 ypc. They stop the best NCAA rushing offenses that average 7 ypc.

I think your ideal is half of first downs being 3-and-outs. That's not realistic, and makes for an extremely boring sim.

Sorry, but I had no problems in season 3. The team did quite well in fact. Our defense was very good, and our offense was one of the best in that league. Not only that, but I could watch and see what was going on and make adjustments to both sides of the ball that resulted in changes that made sense.

Every time I read your comments about average yards per carry and average yards per pass I cringe, because you make it relatively obvious that you are mixing up a real life NFL game with this sim. The differences between the two are quite marked, and if you succeed with your intentions, the offenses will be impossible to stop with equal teams.

These are just a couple of the reasons why:
1) The Sim allows you to run a minimal play set. You can simply pick the plays that run the best for the best yardages and continuously run them. There is no adjustments during the game (other than Bort's new code, which I haven't seen running yet).

2) The NFL may have an average YPC of around 4, but they have a very large variation on the length of the carries in a game, and this Sim doesn't. If I simply look at the SIM, and statistics, with a 4 ypc, and a std deviation of say 2 yards, I'm almost a fool to NOT simply run the ball four times every single set of downs. Unless the team I face is a higher level, or they go full run stopping, then I am going to get a first down, and they won't be able to stop me.

By the way what should be the yards per carry on average if the defense sells out against the run like most defenses in this SIM do? If you say somewhere around 2, and allow the passing yards to increase, then I might be fine with it, but definitely NOT a 4 YPC along with a 7YPP.

PinTBC

Originally posted by PinTBC
Originally posted by Ken1


Season 3 wasn't football. For one thing, there was no such thing as the 70 yard TD drive. One TD won the game, because they were so rare, kind of like soccer. And the TD pretty much only happened if it was set up by a turnover.

You want a mythical game in which every game is played in a blizzard. That was Season 3. People want realism.

In the NFL they average 4 ypc and 7 ypa, and defenses still stop offenses when the defense does its job. You're simply wrong that you can't stop the offense with 4 ypc. They do it in the NFL. They stop the best NFL rushing offenses that average 5 ypc. They stop the best NCAA rushing offenses that average 7 ypc.

I think your ideal is half of first downs being 3-and-outs. That's not realistic, and makes for an extremely boring sim.

Sorry, but I had no problems in season 3. The team did quite well in fact. Our defense was very good, and our offense was one of the best in that league. Not only that, but I could watch and see what was going on and make adjustments to both sides of the ball that resulted in changes that made sense.

Every time I read your comments about average yards per carry and average yards per pass I cringe, because you make it relatively obvious that you are mixing up a real life NFL game with this sim. The differences between the two are quite marked, and if you succeed with your intentions, the offenses will be impossible to stop with equal teams.

These are just a couple of the reasons why:
1) The Sim allows you to run a minimal play set. You can simply pick the plays that run the best for the best yardages and continuously run them. There is no adjustments during the game (other than Bort's new code, which I haven't seen running yet).

2) The NFL may have an average YPC of around 4, but they have a very large variation on the length of the carries in a game, and this Sim doesn't. If I simply look at the SIM, and statistics, with a 4 ypc, and a std deviation of say 2 yards, I'm almost a fool to NOT simply run the ball four times every single set of downs. Unless the team I face is a higher level, or they go full run stopping, then I am going to get a first down, and they won't be able to stop me.

By the way what should be the yards per carry on average if the defense sells out against the run like most defenses in this SIM do? If you say somewhere around 2, and allow the passing yards to increase, then I might be fine with it, but definitely NOT a 4 YPC along with a 7YPP.

PinTBC

To make this post shorter, here:

Make the sim fun for offense, fun for defense, and allow for either side to dominate with the proper personnel and planning.

It's that simple. I don't give a fuck (And I believe many others agree) what the totals of YPC, YPP, Sacks, Hurries, Tackles, FFum, TFL, TD are. I just want a sim that we're able to have fun with, without changing builds and personnel every season to adjust.

Originally posted by Forbin
Originally posted by PinTBC

Originally posted by Ken1



Season 3 wasn't football. For one thing, there was no such thing as the 70 yard TD drive. One TD won the game, because they were so rare, kind of like soccer. And the TD pretty much only happened if it was set up by a turnover.

You want a mythical game in which every game is played in a blizzard. That was Season 3. People want realism.

In the NFL they average 4 ypc and 7 ypa, and defenses still stop offenses when the defense does its job. You're simply wrong that you can't stop the offense with 4 ypc. They do it in the NFL. They stop the best NFL rushing offenses that average 5 ypc. They stop the best NCAA rushing offenses that average 7 ypc.

I think your ideal is half of first downs being 3-and-outs. That's not realistic, and makes for an extremely boring sim.

Sorry, but I had no problems in season 3. The team did quite well in fact. Our defense was very good, and our offense was one of the best in that league. Not only that, but I could watch and see what was going on and make adjustments to both sides of the ball that resulted in changes that made sense.

Every time I read your comments about average yards per carry and average yards per pass I cringe, because you make it relatively obvious that you are mixing up a real life NFL game with this sim. The differences between the two are quite marked, and if you succeed with your intentions, the offenses will be impossible to stop with equal teams.

These are just a couple of the reasons why:
1) The Sim allows you to run a minimal play set. You can simply pick the plays that run the best for the best yardages and continuously run them. There is no adjustments during the game (other than Bort's new code, which I haven't seen running yet).

2) The NFL may have an average YPC of around 4, but they have a very large variation on the length of the carries in a game, and this Sim doesn't. If I simply look at the SIM, and statistics, with a 4 ypc, and a std deviation of say 2 yards, I'm almost a fool to NOT simply run the ball four times every single set of downs. Unless the team I face is a higher level, or they go full run stopping, then I am going to get a first down, and they won't be able to stop me.

By the way what should be the yards per carry on average if the defense sells out against the run like most defenses in this SIM do? If you say somewhere around 2, and allow the passing yards to increase, then I might be fine with it, but definitely NOT a 4 YPC along with a 7YPP.

PinTBC

To make this post shorter, here:

Make the sim fun for offense, fun for defense, and allow for either side to dominate with the proper personnel and planning.

It's that simple. I don't give a fuck (And I believe many others agree) what the totals of YPC, YPP, Sacks, Hurries, Tackles, FFum, TFL, TD are. I just want a sim that we're able to have fun with, without changing builds and personnel every season to adjust.

Well, they held a poll about it and most people do give a flying fuck. And most of those who didn't were voting for inflated stats-- more long runs, more long passes, etc..

The Sim is trying to simulate football, and the better it does that the more fun it will be.

As far as variance, there will be considerably more, as the most important cause of lack of variance was the yards after being tackled...which will be much less this season. Stack the box, have guys who can tackle, and you'll stop guys for 1-2 yards.

Oh, and as to the minimal play set, even if the repeat play penalties weren't being added, as they are, the 4 ypc would be including the use of those. It includes everything that people do that you might think gives the offense an advantage.

As someone else posted, the majority of real life drives are converted for points-- not a huge majority, but the majority. That's what makes football fun. 1-2-3-kick football is boring and should only happen when, whether through tactics, luck on a given series, or talent, the defense overmatches the offense. On most series, like in real life, the defense should fail to prevent a first down.

Originally posted by Ken1


As someone else posted, the majority of real life drives are converted for points-- not a huge majority, but the majority. That's what makes football fun. 1-2-3-kick football is boring and should only happen when, whether through tactics, luck on a given series, or talent, the defense overmatches the offense. On most series, like in real life, the defense should fail to prevent a first down.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not true.

I will post proof of these lies with every teams stats last season.... you are seriously insane if you think 51%+ of all drives in the NFL end up in scores... fg's or td's

INSANE

going to bed first, will post tomorrow

But i will post this for every team....

# of times the offense had the ball.
# of touchdowns scored by the offense.
# of fg's attempted and scored.
# of punts.
# of turnovers (fumbles, INT's and failed 4th down convs)

Originally posted by Whatsdafus
Originally posted by Ken1



As someone else posted, the majority of real life drives are converted for points-- not a huge majority, but the majority. That's what makes football fun. 1-2-3-kick football is boring and should only happen when, whether through tactics, luck on a given series, or talent, the defense overmatches the offense. On most series, like in real life, the defense should fail to prevent a first down.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not true.

I will post proof of these lies with every teams stats last season.... you are seriously insane if you think 51%+ of all drives in the NFL end up in scores... fg's or td's

INSANE

going to bed first, will post tomorrow

But i will post this for every team....

# of times the offense had the ball.
# of touchdowns scored by the offense.
# of fg's attempted and scored.
# of punts.
# of turnovers (fumbles, INT's and failed 4th down convs)

Don't forget safeties in your turnovers.

Originally posted by Whatsdafus
Originally posted by Ken1



As someone else posted, the majority of real life drives are converted for points-- not a huge majority, but the majority. That's what makes football fun. 1-2-3-kick football is boring and should only happen when, whether through tactics, luck on a given series, or talent, the defense overmatches the offense. On most series, like in real life, the defense should fail to prevent a first down.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not true.

I will post proof of these lies with every teams stats last season.... you are seriously insane if you think 51%+ of all drives in the NFL end up in scores... fg's or td's

INSANE

going to bed first, will post tomorrow

But i will post this for every team....

# of times the offense had the ball.
# of touchdowns scored by the offense.
# of fg's attempted and scored.
# of punts.
# of turnovers (fumbles, INT's and failed 4th down convs)

I'm working from this:

Originally posted by Adderfist
NFL Varies from 30% to 50% on third downs converted. with a drive conversion rate between 55 and 70%


I'm taking a "drive conversion rate" to mean converting to scores. Maybe it means every time a first down leads to another. If so, that still would be much a much higher rate than PinTBC would seem to want.

I lived through Season 3, and every game I knew my team's defense would be great and its offense awful...unless we were playing a crappy team and they'd both be great...because they always were.

Ken,

You are reminding me of a person that I have been enjoying arguing statstics with on an NFL board. He loves to use statistics but tends to limit his choice of statistics to those which support his claims. If you are focusing on yards per carry, and yards per pass, without understanding why those numbers are what they are, you will end up screwing this up badly.

It's Ok (and kind of fun) to skew statistics when arguing whether Brady or Manning are better QBs, but if you are designing a game to appeal to a wide range of people, you have to be VERY careful when choosing which stats to choose from and their ramifications.

If you do get your way and manage a 4 YPC, and the standard deviation on a per play basis remains as small as it is, then it will be very difficult to stop an offense.

Personally I'd like to see the YPC closer to 3 when equal teams are playing. That will tend to force at least one pass per set of three plays on average. I'd like to see the defense able to stop the offense if it can win 2 out of 3 downs in a series, which means that you have to be very careful when you set averages.

In a perfect drive, you would see a collection of plays that go something like:

1st down rush of 2 - Defense wins
2nd down rush of 2.5 - Draw no one wins
3rd down pass 10 yards - Offense wins

1st down rush of 6.5 - offense wins
2nd down pass deflected - defense wins
3rd down pass 6 yards - draw

1st down rush 1 yards - Defense wins
2nd down pass deflected Defense wins
3rd down pass 9 yards - Offense wins drive stopped

Out of that drive, you ended up with an average rush of 3 yards per attempt and a yards per pass of only 5 yards per. If you kick those averages up too high without adding a very large variance on a per play basis (I think this would be VERY bad for the game) you are simply not going to be able to stop an offense without stopping them three plays in a row.

People who enjoy creating defensive players, and watching them play well also play this game.

PinTBC