Warrior General Games

I am copying this from the test server because it's an issue going on there that we are working on before Season 9 starts:

Originally posted by thehazyone
Today I decided to test individual running plays to see if there were any potential Strong I Slam type exploit plays. I used the base rosters with no adjustments turning off only the repeat play penalty. Initially for these tests, I used defenses that should be able to limit the running plays that were being called (shifting to the appropriate side, blitzing the appropriate personnel, and short/run focus). Every run was shut out completely, which while good as far as exploits go, but it somewhat concerned me that NO runs were effective. I decided to soften up the defense and moved it to medium/balanced focus. Again, every run was shut down. OK, now I'm a bit worried so I move it to long/pass focus. Teams SHOULD be able to run against this type of defense. It was actually worse than short/run as there was 141 carries for 151 yards.

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=648

I thought it might be the super quick DE/power LB's/Super Safety causing problems so I removed them from the depth chart:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=649

137 carries for 267 yards. A little better but still way under where it should be for a Long/Pass focus defense.

Maybe I need to input a whole set of rosters but I was assuming that the base teams were meant to be relatively even against one another and should provide a balanced, realistic game. Regardless, I see signs that show that the run game is way underpowered now and I can only foresee the large number of complaints that will arise when RB's are averaging 2 yards per carry. If I can have my team playing long/pass focus every down, the game will be easy.

I'd list individual plays but there's so many of them I don't know where to start.

Am I overreacting here or do I have a right to be worried?

Also, I've noticed an abnormally large number of fumbles being returned for TD's in these test games - I'd say the majority of the points scored in these games were a result of these. Were these dialed up?



Originally posted by tester
As far as low ypc I've tended to find that, too.

Since not that many people were conducting realistic sims, and Bort seemed to find that the running backs on his own box were able, with a good offensive line, to succeed, I wasn't sure and things weren't improved much.

I did think that eliminating HB spies might be helpful in that area.

Bort's also been changing various settings. Some games I've run on here have been okay, and others have seemed defense dominated. I think this is more evidence he needs to go with the more pro-rushing settings among those he's tried (more push to run blocking, much less drop off in breaking tackles after a few tackles are broken, more morale loss when pancaked-- which I think has been played with some-- etc..)

The one big thing I don't want him to roll back is the cutback on yards after contact, but from what you say he may have gone back to limiting broken tackles per tick (which kills any inside running) and limiting them per play by having a steep curve where they get harder, also very big because one often gets past a tackle attempt by a lineman and if he becomes too "off-balance" then a mediocre lineman can tackle him, plus turning down offensive run blocking (it has to be more possible than it has been for a defender to win a blocking battle, but when the offensive lineman wins, he should get a lot of push in most cases).

He needs not to have nerfs to the running game besides the lower yards after contact and more chance for a strong defender to win a block battle. Just about anything beyond that and the running game will be destroyed, as those are big to begin with.

Originally posted by Bort
What would you say is the likely culprit? The main modifications we've done as far as the run game:

- reduce fall forward
- increased energy usage per carry (are the backs maybe getting tired too quickly?)
- Recuded ability to plow through existing players
- D line shifts
- LB's don't back away from the line as often, and stay home more

Another thing to consider:

Are you using all of the plays (including draws, etc)? In practice, real live teams (outside of casual I suppose) will be fine tuning their playbook to use the plays that are best suited to them and will usually end up with ~25% higher rushing yards because of it, from past experience.

Originally posted by tester
Originally posted by Bort

What would you say is the likely culprit? The main modifications we've done as far as the run game:

- reduce fall forward
- increased energy usage per carry (are the backs maybe getting tired too quickly?)
- Recuded ability to plow through existing players
- D line shifts
- LB's don't back away from the line as often, and stay home more

I think it's adding all of that without adding anything that helps RB's.

I'd undo "reduced ability to plow through existing players" and either cut back on or undo "increased energy usage per carry."

I like the others too much to suggest that they be eliminated, but even they might have to be slightly tempered (or maybe just working with the two I listed would be enough).



Originally posted by Bort

First benchmark game, with latest sim code:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=654

Test with increased energy usage removed:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=655

Not much of a difference, though both teams have a healthy rotation.

Second run, similar results:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=658

With forced increased avoidance at the line removed, pretty similar results:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=659

Now testing removal of slowdown from passing through defender dots.

Originally posted by thehazyone
I ran a test sim just recently (within the last 30 minutes). Only ran the following running plays:

I HB Blast
I HB Slam
Weak I HB Slam
Strong I HB Slam
Single Back HB Slam
I Off Tackle
Strong I Off Tackle
I Weak Side Handoff
Single Back HB Outside Handoff
Pro Set HB Sweep

It was my experience that these were the most effective running plays used last season.

Defenses used:

Single Back
4-3, Cover 0, Man to Man, Pass, Long, Center Shift, Blitz SS/ROLB
Strong I
4-3, Cover 1, Man to Man, Pass, Long, Center Shift, Blitz FS/SS/(MLB or ROLB)
2 WR formations
4-3, Cover 1, Man to Man, Pass Long, Center Shift, Blitz SS/ROLB

Longest Play From Scrimmage: 8.5 yards
Total Rushes: 138
Total Yards: 292
Avg: 2.1
BrTk: 33
TFL: 12
Fum: 6
FumL: 3

All 5 RB's on each team had at least 8 carries with no back having more than 22.

A bit better but still not where we need it to be. The most effective plays were the ones that were most effective last season -- Strong I HB Slam, I Form HB Slam. It'd be nice if we had a sim where we could call more than 4 running plays.

thanks for posting this Mr.Haze.

Again, I propose a vision check every time the ball changes hands. This would allow for the addition of outside running plays AND play action passes/reverses.

It not only fixes the problem currently but sets a sound building block for further upgrades.

Originally posted by Bort


- increased energy usage per carry (are the backs maybe getting tired too quickly?)



Bort, how does this affect teams with 1 RB versus teams with multiple RBs? Last year a guy could run 50x by himself no problem, but if there is a penalty for extra carries, then they can easily just have 2 guys do 25 carries each and still accomplish the goal of running obscene amounts.

But then the teams that play with a realistic size depth, if they only have 1 RB and want to run 30 times in a game, so now there's going to be an extra penalty for the teams that don't exploit the limitless roster size? This sounds to me like the problems are going to be magnified even more to give more benefit to those that take advantage of the loose rules.

I would offer than Phoenix's O-line seemed overmatched by the Tampa D inn Bort's test and that 'Combo Back' is not a well performing HB in this sim for either team. While obviously not the solution, it could be part of the problem. The powerback seemed to do okay as an average.

+1 to Adderfists idea.

Originally posted by The Strategy Expert

But then the teams that play with a realistic size depth, if they only have 1 RB

Since when is only having one RB on the roster a realistic size depth?

to me looked like the increased line backer aggression and reduced fall forward effect were why the running game was so bad

Originally posted by NiborRis
Originally posted by The Strategy Expert


But then the teams that play with a realistic size depth, if they only have 1 RB

Since when is only having one RB on the roster a realistic size depth?



2 - 3 HB, 1 - 2 FB, 1 - 3 TE Seems reasonable to me...

LBs aren't just attacking more, they seem to be evading/beating the O more?

Originally posted by bluemagus
Originally posted by NiborRis

Originally posted by The Strategy Expert



But then the teams that play with a realistic size depth, if they only have 1 RB

Since when is only having one RB on the roster a realistic size depth?



2 - 3 HB, 1 - 2 FB, 1 - 3 TE Seems reasonable to me...

LBs aren't just attacking more, they seem to be evading/beating the O more?

yea the line backers are evading the line and penetrating quite well

Originally posted by NiborRis
Originally posted by The Strategy Expert


But then the teams that play with a realistic size depth, if they only have 1 RB

Since when is only having one RB on the roster a realistic size depth?



Since in normal football it's cool to have multiple RBs and have guys paid to sit on the bench and not play in the game. But this isn't real football. And the point applies to if you have 2 RBs in comparison to a team that has 4, or any other numbers you want to pair up for argument's sake.

Originally posted by The Strategy Expert
Originally posted by NiborRis

Originally posted by The Strategy Expert



But then the teams that play with a realistic size depth, if they only have 1 RB

Since when is only having one RB on the roster a realistic size depth?



Since in normal football it's cool to have multiple RBs and have guys paid to sit on the bench and not play in the game. But this isn't real football. And the point applies to if you have 2 RBs in comparison to a team that has 4, or any other numbers you want to pair up for argument's sake.

Perhaps a bonus to not only defending the same play, but the same rush/pass call?

I agree with TSE on this point especially at higher levels when the running back has enough stamina to stay in the game and run the ball that many times. Also it is hard (short of making two guys identical) to find another running back that can be as effective as your #1 and if you can find someone good enough for that they might not want to split carries.

Well I think the problem might be that the RBs are actually hitting the holes; and the oline isn't doing too good of a job creating them. Like, on a few plays it was fine, but on a few singleback plays there was a 3-4 called, and the lbs were obviously played well off the line of scrimmage. At the snap the oline would just kinda inch forward and not meet the lbs to open up a hole, and the RB would just kinda run right into a pile of the MLB, the LO, and the SS. Now, I don't know the anatomy of these run plays very well, and it might be a vision problem I don't know, but the RB doesn't seem to be looking for a hole and hitting it; he just kinda runs forward into whatever meets him. Doesn't seem to be much freedom in that from what I saw in bort's test sims.

Folks,

I've said this before and it seems to fall on deaf ears...but please consider it comes from a coach who has consistently had both the best rushing game and best rushing defense in his league season after season.


The running game was barely functional in season 8, with the exception of the Strong I Slam

Every other running play could be stuffed for a loss with alarming consistency unless the HB was an absolute stud and simply broke tackles to make gains.

Functional, but barely so. And yes, this is why the slam was so prevalent...it was the only play with reliable yardage.

And even the slam could be slowed/stopped with the right defensive calls and good defensive builds...as thehazyone showed in the USAPro championship game.


I am not advocating no changes in the sim but...


The changes being made are fundamentally misdirected

This is an over-reaction that will nerf the running game globally in response to a single-play trend in season 8.


What we need is to LOOSEN UP the running game in general, and slightly nerf the specific dynamic that made the Slam a bit over-powered (and it wasn't over powered so much as it was very difficult to ever stop for a loss..every other run was FAR TOO EASILY stopped for a loss, which is why peopled stopped using them and went All -slam).

And I will say this: The D AI alone would solve the Slam problem.

From the looks of the sims I have seen, the ONLY running games that will be viable for season 9 are ones with insane powerbacks vs poor-tackling teams.

Let's not go back to season 3, please.

Originally posted by tautology
Folks,

I've said this before and it seems to fall on deaf ears...but please consider it comes from a coach who has consistently had both the best rushing game and best rushing defense in his league season after season.


The running game was barely functional in season 8, with the exception of the Strong I Slam

Every other running play could be stuffed for a loss with alarming consistency unless the HB was an absolute stud and simply broke tackles to make gains.

Functional, but barely so. And yes, this is why the slam was so prevalent...it was the only play with reliable yardage.

And even the slam could be slowed/stopped with the right defensive calls and good defensive builds...as thehazyone showed in the USAPro championship game.


I am not advocating no changes in the sim but...


The changes being made are fundamentally misdirected

This is an over-reaction that will nerf the running game globally in response to a single-play trend in season 8.


What we need is to LOOSEN UP the running game in general, and slightly nerf the specific dynamic that made the Slam a bit over-powered (and it wasn't over powered so much as it was very difficult to ever stop for a loss..every other run was FAR TOO EASILY stopped for a loss, which is why peopled stopped using them and went All -slam).

And I will say this: The D AI alone would solve the Slam problem.

From the looks of the sims I have seen, the ONLY running games that will be viable for season 9 are ones with insane powerbacks vs poor-tackling teams.

Let's not go back to season 3, please.

So your change is "cut the HB Slam from the playbook (or figure out how to nerf only that one play) and improve the running game"? Not judging, just paraphrasing.

taut, your concerns were mine as well, which is why I brought this to Bort's attention and why I'm posting this here.