Does speed help the fake SAs actually fire? Aside from creating space after the defender is faked.
Forum > FAQ's, Player Guides and Newbie Help > Does Speed factor into the actual fake?
Larry Roadgrader
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Since nobody else has yet responded, I will just bump the topic by pointing this out: without sufficient speed, there won't likely be enough separation for the fake SAs to matter.
Back in the day I saw all sorts of "120 catching" builds....but none of them in World League.
Back in the day I saw all sorts of "120 catching" builds....but none of them in World League.
Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
Since nobody else has yet responded, I will just bump the topic by pointing this out: without sufficient speed, there won't likely be enough separation for the fake SAs to matter.
Back in the day I saw all sorts of "120 catching" builds....but none of them in World League.
I agree with this as using Fake SA's or Catch Fake will not help much on a possession receiver and is a waste of SP's as they just don't have the speed to keep any separation they may benefit from it even if it does fire.
Since nobody else has yet responded, I will just bump the topic by pointing this out: without sufficient speed, there won't likely be enough separation for the fake SAs to matter.
Back in the day I saw all sorts of "120 catching" builds....but none of them in World League.
I agree with this as using Fake SA's or Catch Fake will not help much on a possession receiver and is a waste of SP's as they just don't have the speed to keep any separation they may benefit from it even if it does fire.
Go Pack 120
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In my experience, this is what helps your SAs fire while running a route
Head Fake - SA Level, Vision, Agility, Fake %
Juke - SA Level, Agility, Vision, Fake %
Catch Fake - SA Level, Fake %
I also suspect that Quick Cut helps with Juke, but I haven't confirmed that yet.
Head Fake - SA Level, Vision, Agility, Fake %
Juke - SA Level, Agility, Vision, Fake %
Catch Fake - SA Level, Fake %
I also suspect that Quick Cut helps with Juke, but I haven't confirmed that yet.
Don't forget Quick Feet VA...30% bonus there as well, and I've seen some fake builds not have it equipped.
TJ Spikes
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I keep a list of fakey type stuff
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4829505&page=4#44683746
1) I am frequently frustrated by having man cover DBacks who I think are very well built (agility and vision around 90 or more, Quick Cut, Super Vision, Shutdown around 10 or higher etc) completely left to wander 5 yards off the receiver when the receiver does a sudden cut in his route, leaving the receiver open to the point where he calls Im Open and catches the big gain.
Secondarily I am frustrated that my WRs do not seem to get this to happen for them very often if at all. Oh and no SAs show up in this, no Juke or Fake announced in the replay.
So the question is, could you please explain the details of the routine for determining when a receiver makes a cut thats steep enough to lose a man coverage and whether or not the man covering DB is fooled and what determines how long he is fooled meaning how long he runs before turning and how quickly he is to get back on the receiver. IE What triggers the steep turn, what checks/comparisons/rolls are made to see how tight it is, what checks are made to see if the DB can follow it and how soon and well he follows it and finally does double teaming help at all?
Originally posted by Bort
Every time a receiver reaches a cut point in his route, he will impart a reaction delay to any defender following him. How good of a cut the receiver makes makes depends on his agility and route running abilities. This effect can be mitigated some (delay time reduced) by passing vision checks at the cut point. However, it is not possible to ever have a delay of 0 without passing an exceedingly difficult roll. There will nearly always be at least 1 tick of delay. In addition, the vision checks are harder to pass and the delay effect is increased when the defender is following very closely and aggressively in man coverage. Head fakes and jukes (which can be mitigated by vision checks and superior vision skill) increase the delay time imparted.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4946982&page=3#45860199
Does creative route running fire more catch fakes, head fakes, and jukes than exact route running?
It does not give a bonus to doing so, but it gives many more opportunities as the route will end up with more hitches and movement, so yes, in the end you should see more fakes coming out of it.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4976524&page=4#46174886
This is regards to the bonus from Route Run SA. Could you elaborate on this without giving out specifics? Like, would RR benefit a slower guy more than a speedier guy with regards to the speed bonus? If a WR has 150 speed from equipment, would 10 points in RR be like 10 points of speed to make it 160? Not asking for specific values if thats the case, but just a general head nod.
Does the bonus to agility from RR also factor into a WR's ability to have more effective Head Fakes or Jukes?
A player with lower speed/agility will see more benefit than one with more, as it's technically a higher percentage of their skills. Pretty sure the skill even says as much. But yeah, it's essentially just adding a few points to speed and giving a better "change direction" score.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4909235&page=5#45571729
Does catch fake fire without needing make a cut now?
Catch fake can fire whenever the player hits a waypoint in his route. This is usually a cut, but it can also be when he hits his hot spot.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=5065409&page=1#47155260
3.
Do player need have SA like Head Fake, Juke, Catch Fake to activate a "Fake Motion"?
Like we can break tackle, diving tackle, jump catch without corresponding SA.
I ask this because sometimes I saw replay like this:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2332501&pbp_id=153973 CB keep move while WR stop, thus separation was made.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2333817&pbp_id=911702 see WR3 vs. CB3, CB3 keep going while WR3 make cut.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2306075&pbp_id=1660757 same as above.
So my question is:
Q1.Do player can do "Fake motion" even they don't have sp in Fake SA?
Q2.Do player got faked even there no icon pop out?
Q3.Do above play D player got faked?
Q4.If answer of Q3 is yes, do +% avoid fake gear can help in this situation?
Originally posted by Bort
3. There is a different kind of "fake" caused by a quick enough change in direction, that does not require an SA. The defender will tend to overrun his target from not reacting quickly enough, being carried on by momentum. "Avoid fake" does not help avoid this, but vision, agility, and superior vision skill do.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046016
Originally posted by
Originally posted by Bort
Man coverage delay is entirely based on vision and super vision. Successful super vision checks even let you have a delay of zero ticks.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4829505&page=4#44683746
1) I am frequently frustrated by having man cover DBacks who I think are very well built (agility and vision around 90 or more, Quick Cut, Super Vision, Shutdown around 10 or higher etc) completely left to wander 5 yards off the receiver when the receiver does a sudden cut in his route, leaving the receiver open to the point where he calls Im Open and catches the big gain.
Secondarily I am frustrated that my WRs do not seem to get this to happen for them very often if at all. Oh and no SAs show up in this, no Juke or Fake announced in the replay.
So the question is, could you please explain the details of the routine for determining when a receiver makes a cut thats steep enough to lose a man coverage and whether or not the man covering DB is fooled and what determines how long he is fooled meaning how long he runs before turning and how quickly he is to get back on the receiver. IE What triggers the steep turn, what checks/comparisons/rolls are made to see how tight it is, what checks are made to see if the DB can follow it and how soon and well he follows it and finally does double teaming help at all?
Originally posted by Bort
Every time a receiver reaches a cut point in his route, he will impart a reaction delay to any defender following him. How good of a cut the receiver makes makes depends on his agility and route running abilities. This effect can be mitigated some (delay time reduced) by passing vision checks at the cut point. However, it is not possible to ever have a delay of 0 without passing an exceedingly difficult roll. There will nearly always be at least 1 tick of delay. In addition, the vision checks are harder to pass and the delay effect is increased when the defender is following very closely and aggressively in man coverage. Head fakes and jukes (which can be mitigated by vision checks and superior vision skill) increase the delay time imparted.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4946982&page=3#45860199
Does creative route running fire more catch fakes, head fakes, and jukes than exact route running?
It does not give a bonus to doing so, but it gives many more opportunities as the route will end up with more hitches and movement, so yes, in the end you should see more fakes coming out of it.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4976524&page=4#46174886
This is regards to the bonus from Route Run SA. Could you elaborate on this without giving out specifics? Like, would RR benefit a slower guy more than a speedier guy with regards to the speed bonus? If a WR has 150 speed from equipment, would 10 points in RR be like 10 points of speed to make it 160? Not asking for specific values if thats the case, but just a general head nod.
Does the bonus to agility from RR also factor into a WR's ability to have more effective Head Fakes or Jukes?
A player with lower speed/agility will see more benefit than one with more, as it's technically a higher percentage of their skills. Pretty sure the skill even says as much. But yeah, it's essentially just adding a few points to speed and giving a better "change direction" score.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4909235&page=5#45571729
Does catch fake fire without needing make a cut now?
Catch fake can fire whenever the player hits a waypoint in his route. This is usually a cut, but it can also be when he hits his hot spot.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=5065409&page=1#47155260
3.
Do player need have SA like Head Fake, Juke, Catch Fake to activate a "Fake Motion"?
Like we can break tackle, diving tackle, jump catch without corresponding SA.
I ask this because sometimes I saw replay like this:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2332501&pbp_id=153973 CB keep move while WR stop, thus separation was made.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2333817&pbp_id=911702 see WR3 vs. CB3, CB3 keep going while WR3 make cut.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2306075&pbp_id=1660757 same as above.
So my question is:
Q1.Do player can do "Fake motion" even they don't have sp in Fake SA?
Q2.Do player got faked even there no icon pop out?
Q3.Do above play D player got faked?
Q4.If answer of Q3 is yes, do +% avoid fake gear can help in this situation?
Originally posted by Bort
3. There is a different kind of "fake" caused by a quick enough change in direction, that does not require an SA. The defender will tend to overrun his target from not reacting quickly enough, being carried on by momentum. "Avoid fake" does not help avoid this, but vision, agility, and superior vision skill do.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046016
Originally posted by
Originally posted by Bort
Man coverage delay is entirely based on vision and super vision. Successful super vision checks even let you have a delay of zero ticks.
Larry Roadgrader
online
online
Originally posted by TJ Spikes
I keep a list of fakey type stuff
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4829505&page=4#44683746
1) I am frequently frustrated by having man cover DBacks who I think are very well built (agility and vision around 90 or more, Quick Cut, Super Vision, Shutdown around 10 or higher etc) completely left to wander 5 yards off the receiver when the receiver does a sudden cut in his route, leaving the receiver open to the point where he calls Im Open and catches the big gain.
Secondarily I am frustrated that my WRs do not seem to get this to happen for them very often if at all. Oh and no SAs show up in this, no Juke or Fake announced in the replay.
So the question is, could you please explain the details of the routine for determining when a receiver makes a cut thats steep enough to lose a man coverage and whether or not the man covering DB is fooled and what determines how long he is fooled meaning how long he runs before turning and how quickly he is to get back on the receiver. IE What triggers the steep turn, what checks/comparisons/rolls are made to see how tight it is, what checks are made to see if the DB can follow it and how soon and well he follows it and finally does double teaming help at all?
Originally posted by Bort
Every time a receiver reaches a cut point in his route, he will impart a reaction delay to any defender following him. How good of a cut the receiver makes makes depends on his agility and route running abilities. This effect can be mitigated some (delay time reduced) by passing vision checks at the cut point. However, it is not possible to ever have a delay of 0 without passing an exceedingly difficult roll. There will nearly always be at least 1 tick of delay. In addition, the vision checks are harder to pass and the delay effect is increased when the defender is following very closely and aggressively in man coverage. Head fakes and jukes (which can be mitigated by vision checks and superior vision skill) increase the delay time imparted.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4946982&page=3#45860199
Does creative route running fire more catch fakes, head fakes, and jukes than exact route running?
It does not give a bonus to doing so, but it gives many more opportunities as the route will end up with more hitches and movement, so yes, in the end you should see more fakes coming out of it.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4976524&page=4#46174886
This is regards to the bonus from Route Run SA. Could you elaborate on this without giving out specifics? Like, would RR benefit a slower guy more than a speedier guy with regards to the speed bonus? If a WR has 150 speed from equipment, would 10 points in RR be like 10 points of speed to make it 160? Not asking for specific values if thats the case, but just a general head nod.
Does the bonus to agility from RR also factor into a WR's ability to have more effective Head Fakes or Jukes?
A player with lower speed/agility will see more benefit than one with more, as it's technically a higher percentage of their skills. Pretty sure the skill even says as much. But yeah, it's essentially just adding a few points to speed and giving a better "change direction" score.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4909235&page=5#45571729
Does catch fake fire without needing make a cut now?
Catch fake can fire whenever the player hits a waypoint in his route. This is usually a cut, but it can also be when he hits his hot spot.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=5065409&page=1#47155260
3.
Do player need have SA like Head Fake, Juke, Catch Fake to activate a "Fake Motion"?
Like we can break tackle, diving tackle, jump catch without corresponding SA.
I ask this because sometimes I saw replay like this:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2332501&pbp_id=153973 CB keep move while WR stop, thus separation was made.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2333817&pbp_id=911702 see WR3 vs. CB3, CB3 keep going while WR3 make cut.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2306075&pbp_id=1660757 same as above.
So my question is:
Q1.Do player can do "Fake motion" even they don't have sp in Fake SA?
Q2.Do player got faked even there no icon pop out?
Q3.Do above play D player got faked?
Q4.If answer of Q3 is yes, do +% avoid fake gear can help in this situation?
Originally posted by Bort
3. There is a different kind of "fake" caused by a quick enough change in direction, that does not require an SA. The defender will tend to overrun his target from not reacting quickly enough, being carried on by momentum. "Avoid fake" does not help avoid this, but vision, agility, and superior vision skill do.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046016
Originally posted by
Originally posted by Bort
Man coverage delay is entirely based on vision and super vision. Successful super vision checks even let you have a delay of zero ticks.
Monster post--thank you!
I keep a list of fakey type stuff
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4829505&page=4#44683746
1) I am frequently frustrated by having man cover DBacks who I think are very well built (agility and vision around 90 or more, Quick Cut, Super Vision, Shutdown around 10 or higher etc) completely left to wander 5 yards off the receiver when the receiver does a sudden cut in his route, leaving the receiver open to the point where he calls Im Open and catches the big gain.
Secondarily I am frustrated that my WRs do not seem to get this to happen for them very often if at all. Oh and no SAs show up in this, no Juke or Fake announced in the replay.
So the question is, could you please explain the details of the routine for determining when a receiver makes a cut thats steep enough to lose a man coverage and whether or not the man covering DB is fooled and what determines how long he is fooled meaning how long he runs before turning and how quickly he is to get back on the receiver. IE What triggers the steep turn, what checks/comparisons/rolls are made to see how tight it is, what checks are made to see if the DB can follow it and how soon and well he follows it and finally does double teaming help at all?
Originally posted by Bort
Every time a receiver reaches a cut point in his route, he will impart a reaction delay to any defender following him. How good of a cut the receiver makes makes depends on his agility and route running abilities. This effect can be mitigated some (delay time reduced) by passing vision checks at the cut point. However, it is not possible to ever have a delay of 0 without passing an exceedingly difficult roll. There will nearly always be at least 1 tick of delay. In addition, the vision checks are harder to pass and the delay effect is increased when the defender is following very closely and aggressively in man coverage. Head fakes and jukes (which can be mitigated by vision checks and superior vision skill) increase the delay time imparted.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4946982&page=3#45860199
Does creative route running fire more catch fakes, head fakes, and jukes than exact route running?
It does not give a bonus to doing so, but it gives many more opportunities as the route will end up with more hitches and movement, so yes, in the end you should see more fakes coming out of it.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4976524&page=4#46174886
This is regards to the bonus from Route Run SA. Could you elaborate on this without giving out specifics? Like, would RR benefit a slower guy more than a speedier guy with regards to the speed bonus? If a WR has 150 speed from equipment, would 10 points in RR be like 10 points of speed to make it 160? Not asking for specific values if thats the case, but just a general head nod.
Does the bonus to agility from RR also factor into a WR's ability to have more effective Head Fakes or Jukes?
A player with lower speed/agility will see more benefit than one with more, as it's technically a higher percentage of their skills. Pretty sure the skill even says as much. But yeah, it's essentially just adding a few points to speed and giving a better "change direction" score.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4909235&page=5#45571729
Does catch fake fire without needing make a cut now?
Catch fake can fire whenever the player hits a waypoint in his route. This is usually a cut, but it can also be when he hits his hot spot.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=5065409&page=1#47155260
3.
Do player need have SA like Head Fake, Juke, Catch Fake to activate a "Fake Motion"?
Like we can break tackle, diving tackle, jump catch without corresponding SA.
I ask this because sometimes I saw replay like this:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2332501&pbp_id=153973 CB keep move while WR stop, thus separation was made.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2333817&pbp_id=911702 see WR3 vs. CB3, CB3 keep going while WR3 make cut.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2306075&pbp_id=1660757 same as above.
So my question is:
Q1.Do player can do "Fake motion" even they don't have sp in Fake SA?
Q2.Do player got faked even there no icon pop out?
Q3.Do above play D player got faked?
Q4.If answer of Q3 is yes, do +% avoid fake gear can help in this situation?
Originally posted by Bort
3. There is a different kind of "fake" caused by a quick enough change in direction, that does not require an SA. The defender will tend to overrun his target from not reacting quickly enough, being carried on by momentum. "Avoid fake" does not help avoid this, but vision, agility, and superior vision skill do.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046016
Originally posted by
Originally posted by Bort
Man coverage delay is entirely based on vision and super vision. Successful super vision checks even let you have a delay of zero ticks.
Monster post--thank you!
TJ Spikes
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also fwiw... Faking on receivers is a waste of time unless you take the spray and pray approach. If you're slinging 10+ targets per game to 1 dot, you're bound to hit on a couple. Hope your team enjoys INT morale swings though.
You can't out-speed Ballhawk. A 15% Speed boost alone is ridiculous and the Agility and Vision boost just add insult to injury.
Possession WRs are completely different. They don't want to be open. Attempting to fake on a possession build is double counter productive. Not only will it fail, but you'll waste resources doing it.
also fwiw, there have been high catching dots in WL, https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4873420
Success is always limited by the Ai. If that dot gets fed 10+ targets a game, that's 120+ catches and 1600+ yards on the season.
The only reason anyone doesn't see them in WL is because no one is building them. The first team to catch on to that wave will have a lot of success.
You can't out-speed Ballhawk. A 15% Speed boost alone is ridiculous and the Agility and Vision boost just add insult to injury.
Possession WRs are completely different. They don't want to be open. Attempting to fake on a possession build is double counter productive. Not only will it fail, but you'll waste resources doing it.
also fwiw, there have been high catching dots in WL, https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4873420
Success is always limited by the Ai. If that dot gets fed 10+ targets a game, that's 120+ catches and 1600+ yards on the season.
The only reason anyone doesn't see them in WL is because no one is building them. The first team to catch on to that wave will have a lot of success.
Larry Roadgrader
online
online
Originally posted by TJ Spikes
also fwiw, there have been high catching dots in WL, https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4873420
Success is always limited by the Ai. If that dot gets fed 10+ targets a game, that's 120+ catches and 1600+ yards on the season.
The only reason anyone doesn't see them in WL is because no one is building them. The first team to catch on to that wave will have a lot of success.
That dot never had a 500 yard season?
also fwiw, there have been high catching dots in WL, https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4873420
Success is always limited by the Ai. If that dot gets fed 10+ targets a game, that's 120+ catches and 1600+ yards on the season.
The only reason anyone doesn't see them in WL is because no one is building them. The first team to catch on to that wave will have a lot of success.
That dot never had a 500 yard season?
TJ Spikes
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That's an Ai issue. The dot was catching 77% of it's targets. Just needed one OC to believe.
Go Pack 120
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes
That's an Ai issue. The dot was catching 77% of it's targets. Just needed one OC to believe.
That's the main reason I haven't really tried a Possession WR. Bort himself said that, all things equal, WR Speed plays a factor in who the QB targets if everyone's covered. And since a true Possession WR is always going to show as "Covered" and going to have the lowest Speed of the available catching options, you're just gonna be an ornamental tortoise.
Hm. Maybe that's the name I go with if I ever do make one.
But yeah. Stupid name ideas aside, you'd need to actually have the OC plan around your WR. And then cross your fingers, because it still might not work. It should work, but I don't know that anyone has really given it a shot (with both a good Possession WR build and an OC willing to fiddle with it until they actually get targets.
That's an Ai issue. The dot was catching 77% of it's targets. Just needed one OC to believe.
That's the main reason I haven't really tried a Possession WR. Bort himself said that, all things equal, WR Speed plays a factor in who the QB targets if everyone's covered. And since a true Possession WR is always going to show as "Covered" and going to have the lowest Speed of the available catching options, you're just gonna be an ornamental tortoise.
Hm. Maybe that's the name I go with if I ever do make one.
But yeah. Stupid name ideas aside, you'd need to actually have the OC plan around your WR. And then cross your fingers, because it still might not work. It should work, but I don't know that anyone has really given it a shot (with both a good Possession WR build and an OC willing to fiddle with it until they actually get targets.
Originally posted by RyanCane26
#3 WR in Pro 1 and #3/#5 in Pro 2 are Possession builds FWIW
Curious to how possession WR can be 48/81 with 8 drops:
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4870611
Maybe KLs? Do those count as drops?
#3 WR in Pro 1 and #3/#5 in Pro 2 are Possession builds FWIW
Curious to how possession WR can be 48/81 with 8 drops:
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4870611
Maybe KLs? Do those count as drops?
Go Pack 120
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Originally posted by PeeJJK
Curious to how possession WR can be 48/81 with 8 drops:
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4870611
Maybe KLs? Do those count as drops?
This guy is at 125-130 speed, if I had to guess. So a tentative reach into the possession WR realm. Probably 105-110 Catching with good Jumping and Vision to help.
Curious to how possession WR can be 48/81 with 8 drops:
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4870611
Maybe KLs? Do those count as drops?
This guy is at 125-130 speed, if I had to guess. So a tentative reach into the possession WR realm. Probably 105-110 Catching with good Jumping and Vision to help.
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