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Forum > FAQ's, Player Guides and Newbie Help > Wise's Pocket Passer QB Build Plan - Thoughts welcome
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reddogrw
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
IMHO? Anything below 80 is crap. 80 to 90 is just ok (yes... I know my current builds are in that range but a health issue caused major damage to many of my builds because I couldn't switch off training certain skills in time so some things aren't wheer I wanted them now). 90+ is best. I've seen a few with 100 or more but I'm not sure the difference between 90+ and 100 is enough to warrant the extra SP's or training there. 95 is generally my target number.


yeah - my 3 time WL MVP QB had like 60, so I don't see going much higher
 
88Spam
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Originally posted by reddogrw
yeah - my 3 time WL MVP QB had like 60, so I don't see going much higher


Exactly... especially when a QB can throw 5 ints with 60-70 confidence and still have 93 morale after the 5th one lol.

Waste of SP that can be put into more Str, speed or SPs on top of what you're getting back by taking those SPs out of carrying.

I just realized you don't have a PD, you pretty much have to have 1.
Edited by 88Spam on Apr 15, 2022 12:54:31
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by RyanCane26
Even if we're not sure that more would have helped, I"m fairly certain that less would not have


We are talking strength vs confidence, we are not talking "more" vs "less".

Originally posted by RyanCane26
And the same QB carved my defense up in s89 throwing to a single covered TE often


In 5 WL playoff games he had...

TD/INT
0/0
4/4
0/2
0/6
0/6

I am not using this as proof of anything besides refuting the one guy's theory that maybe the problem is WL QB's currently have "TOO MUCH" confidence, and should drop lower to like 50...
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by 88Spam

I just realized you don't have a PD, you pretty much have to have 1.


Why is that?

PD% (and also the main function of strength for that matter) simply pushes back the distance at which pass quality degrades.

So lets say your QB begins getting a -PQ due to distance at 10 yards. With +15% PD%, he gets a 10 yard penalty on 11.5 yard passes instead.

Even on a 40 yard pass, does your PQ roll treating it like a -15% (34 yard pass) instead, actually really matter? In a game where mid level dots can throw deep, do we think the distance modifier in and of itself is crippling, such that a 6 yard difference is crippling?

I can't prove to you that it doesn't matter. But personally I'd much rather have +3% PQ than +15% PD, due to what PD actually does...

 
vtech9
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I've never built a true pocket passing QB. I started one back in Sn 2, but the OC for the team wanted to use him as a hybrid, so his build went sideways. Even so, he still only had 2 seasons where he had more Ints than TD's, but I blame that on the teams they were on. Hell, one of those seasons he had 59 Ints on over 1200 pass attempts, and was sacked 36 times on 132 hurries. That sucked.

I went with higher Confidence with my QB, and other than those two seasons, he generally had a 3 to 1 TD/Int ratio at worst. I also had On the Run up to 3. One thing I did, but have no clue why, is I trained Jumping up to a little over 20. Which brings me to my question.

In the real world combines, they use jumping ability to show explosiveness (ie .. vertical jump, standing broad jump). Do any of you think taking jumping to 22 or so would have any positive effects?
Edited by vtech9 on Apr 15, 2022 13:14:43
 
reddogrw
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Originally posted by 88Spam
Exactly... especially when a QB can throw 5 ints with 60-70 confidence and still have 93 morale after the 5th one lol.

Waste of SP that can be put into more Str, speed or SPs on top of what you're getting back by taking those SPs out of carrying.

I just realized you don't have a PD, you pretty much have to have 1.


I have 1 PD%
 
88Spam
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Originally posted by reddogrw
I have 1 PD%



That part wasn’t meant for you.
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
30 confidence qb in WL threw 0 tds and 12 int in two playoff games s90/s91 fwiw. I really don't think less confidence than meta is the solution here.


Confidence without vision won't stop ints. In fact Int's are more likely a combination of several things. Vision (not seeing the defense correctly), Strength+Qb settings (lofty vs bullet), OC progressions (targeting the wrong receivers at the worst time and giving QB no good options), Quality of receivers (lack of fake ability will kill) and other little things... confidence being one of those if your QB was constantly under duress. Most top teams build both offense and defense with AOI so anytime any defender gets near the QB, the highly possible effect is damage against your accuracy due to the effect of both hurry and AOI. Confidence is supposed to help that but it cannot be the sole thing to save you. Also consider that, when hurried, a QB has a tendency to move... and it he throws while moving that's another penalty to both vision and accuracy. When I did scouting I noted that many INT's happened when the following occurred;
A.) Routes too close to each other when the pass is thrown. This was, by far, the leading cause of most of our QB's ints. Once the Qb throws the ball, any defenders in the area closed and closed fast on the receiver. If there were other receivers nearby then those defenders would peal off and become part of the play. One receiver vs 5 defenders is death. Best you can hope for is an INC.
B.) QB was under duress/hurry. Always caused QB to move as he was throwing and generally in haste so he'd throw into double coverage (or worse) and the pass had a very decent chance of being off target, meaning the defense had the better shot at the catch than the receiver did.
C.) QB was throwing too many deep passes. The deeper the pass, the more likely it will not be on target. The more likely it's not on target the more likely a defender gets a free shot at the INT. I'm not against deep passes... just against it being overused.


Originally posted by RyanCane26
And the same QB carved my defense up in s89 throwing to a single covered TE often


He's got my point here. Single coverage is a QB's best friend (especially if it's a high quality receiver.) Of course wide open with nobody covering is the best of all but any DC doing that isn't in WL.
Edited by Theo Wizzago on Apr 15, 2022 22:48:59
 
Kenshinzen
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
He's got my point here. Single coverage is a QB's best friend (especially if it's a high quality receiver.) Of course wide open with nobody covering is the best of all but any DC doing that isn't in WL.


Not every time. At some point you may be open and the other surrounded by 4 defenders (Ball Hawk is broken).

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3088676&pbp_id=1161074
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Kenshinzen
Not every time. At some point you may be open and the other surrounded by 4 defenders (Ball Hawk is broken).

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3088676&pbp_id=1161074


Tbf, if you look at the pathing of the WR before the ball is thrown, vs after the ball is thrown, (wr slows down and moves as a more shallow angle) its clear the ball is not targeting the receiver in stride and is instead off target. This means the pass quality was likely low. Note the two DE very close to the QB at time of throwing = pressure.

My point is, while obviously tons of stuff matters, it is not having multiple defenders that = automatic INT's, it's having a bad pass quality roll + multiple defenders = Int (generalization).

Obviously a lot of OC's are doing bad stuff, and things shouldn't be as hard as they are, but we live in the world as it is. But guys like Tomcic+RC in WL very clearly know what they are doing, yet still can't avoid INT hell.

While my theory is higher confidence is part of the solution, current WL builds at least prove out that current WL meta builds throw very very high numbers of INT's. Shouldn't people be trying different things to resolve that?

 
Theo Wizzago
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I actually don't have major issues with INT's... my troubles are completion %'s. I tend to think the root causes are the same though. Most of my INC's are due to either heavy QB pressure or simply bad decisions... either by me when setting progressions or by the QB's thinking it's ok to toss into double or triple coverage. I can solve the former with time and effort... but the other I admit to being not totally un-baffled by. If I could totally eliminate certain factors... pressures and such things that cause poor pass quality/decisions, I likely would find I'm mostly right about the why's and such. Don't know if that would mean I could break the game and hit 100% completion ratios... but I doubt it.
 
TJ Spikes
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I know this went cold, but I just stumbled onto this while looking for something else.

Originally posted by Bort
PQ is mainly based on vision and throwing ability, though things like confidence and SA's go into it too. It is affected downward by the pass distance compared to the QB's max pass distance, if the QB fails a check against it. So if a QB can only throw 30 yards, and the pass is 30 yards, pass quality is very likely going to be lessened, and a wobbly pass results.

Did anyone know that? I didn't. There's a check, it's not just a linear decline in quality over distance.

 
Kenshinzen
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Question is who is a QBs max distance? Obviously affected by strength but any other attribute takes part?
 
RyanCane26
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Have this guy coming up in a couple seasons as a test

STR 90.26
THR 109.2 (+58) 167.2
VIS 97.2
SPD 63.26
AGL 77.2
CONF 50.26

PQ 25.5%
PD 22.5%

10-10-7 SA's
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes
I know this went cold, but I just stumbled onto this while looking for something else.

Originally posted by Bort
PQ is mainly based on vision and throwing ability, though things like confidence and SA's go into it too. It is affected downward by the pass distance compared to the QB's max pass distance, if the QB fails a check against it. So if a QB can only throw 30 yards, and the pass is 30 yards, pass quality is very likely going to be lessened, and a wobbly pass results.

Did anyone know that? I didn't. There's a check, it's not just a linear decline in quality over distance.



Yes. I've been doing my OC progressions based off of that knowledge for quite a while. Everybody knows short passes are more likely to be completed vs long ones. The effect (of distance) is the same for kickers as it is for QB's (likely punters too). The farther the ball travels in the air, the more penalty to accuracy (quality with QB's) you get. Strength is what sets the distance parameters. So a 50 strength QB vs a 100 Strength QB... example; The 50 strength might start receiving distance penalties beyond 10 yards... maybe even 5 yards. The 100 strength would might not receive penalties until 30-40 yards were traveled. (Note... I'm just using random numbers to show difference. I have NO idea how Bort's numbers compare so don't take what I just posted an accurate numbers. It's just there to show the difference only.)

It's the same when trying to decide max FG range. A kickers' strength determines the point at which penalties happen to kick accuracy. When you look at FG made/miss percentages you can clearly see where the sharp decline in FG accuracy happens. For fully built kickers it generally appears beyond 50 yards. The stronger the kicker (along with good kicking and confidence, obviously) the better the %'s made are beyond 50. Kicks beyond 60 are like trying to hit a flush draw on the river. Yeah... it happens and it even happens enough people chase it even though they know the odds are against them.


 
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