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Forum > FAQ's, Player Guides and Newbie Help > Wise's Pocket Passer QB Build Plan - Thoughts welcome
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WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by reddogrw
of those 4 choices, option 2 - going past 12 is a waste for SA's - better to use those resources elsewhere


Thanks. I agree option 2 is the most "meta/safe", not that I'll necessarily go that route.

Does anyone else find it weird that for some reason the whole game take's a bort quotes that were made at a time when favored SA's didn't exist and when you couldn't get an SA past 15 as gospel? Everything after that is conjecture and maybe some catch22 (who never saw the code) quote about "large diminishing returns after 12 or 13". To my knowledge bort never said something is worthless past 13, he just said "probably not worth it", but we have no context for what that actually means.

The fact is, that 16th point of tight spiral does SOMETHING. and that something is multiplied by the favored SA bonus (maybe +30%, who knows?), and then is multipled by PQ% in the pass quality roll. So lets say the 16th point in a SA is only worth 20% as much as the 10th point. 1*10%*130%*127.75% = 33.2% of each point from lvl 1-10.


===================

SA's over 10
– Originally posted by Bort

SA at 11 works fine. It's currently just impossible to get it higher, since you can only get a natural 10, and a +1 from your custom equipment. The new equipment stuff will allow you to get some more +1's, though, so you could theoretically get up to 15.


– Originally posted by Bort

Yeah they'd be pretty good, but not a huge ton better than 11 really, based on the way that most of them work. Yes it would take a while to get something to lv 15, not to mention all the SP's you have to spend to get to lv 10 naturally!


– Originally posted by Bort

Sorta; there's just some special stuff in there for stuff greater than 10 to keep things from getting horribly broken (like autofake every time or something LOL)
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Kenshinzen
5. +27.75% PQ, +11 PP, +13 TS


I'd contend that the 14 SP is better off as +3 tight spiral (favored) than +3 strength or something. But I guess it's probably a close enough thing, big picture.
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Anyone have thoughts on whether I'm doing anything straight up retarded in my multi training / enhancements?

Tried to avoid training at 30->48. Lvl3 enhanced first 4 attributes. lvl1 enhanced rest, though did lvl2 enhance one of the secondaries randomly.

Basically just used these graphs and tried not to do anything awful...
https://sites.google.com/site/glbmandyross/training_hotspots
 
OklahomaWolf
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Thanks for the thoughts.

Personally I despise quick read as an OC, since it takes away control of progressions and has qbs often flashs through them all, freak outs, and throw a deep pass into double coverage deep/late in a play. It's a personal preference thing, but quick read has to be my least favorite SA in the game


Regarding the spd/agi, being able to move a little helps to avoid pressure and pressure is one of your two reasons for throwing bad passes and INT's. Not saying 64/64 is perfect, just that the spd/agi matters for every qb. And yes I know he's not gonna Vick guys in the backfield, but as the qb feels pressure they move away from it, and distance to the defender while throwing is what is destroying pass quality on pressures.


Yes that's why you have high agility. Quick read helps in progression in pro. Bort has his system where anything can happen.

Every special has its negative side. But this is where you gotta figure out what works best for you... Quick read is bad in lower levels but very good in Pro...
 
OklahomaWolf
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Drop carrying down by 10 and relocate points
 
OklahomaWolf
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Tight spiral Is at 17 I'd relocate atleast 5 or so points somewhere else. Pro level you'll get a few ints just because doubt throwing 17 into tight spiral will lower INT's but worth a try

I ran 2 QBs to test them out deep passer out performed pocket QB, both had an issue with Interception in higher level games... it's like the Bort gods want to see the ball change possessions
 
OklahomaWolf
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Carrying helps with ball control for better passes. I'd only put around 50 points into it though

Tight spiral is a waste... bort likes to get his Interceptions so I'd drop 5 maybe even 6 points from it

Speed at 60 is a bit high imo. Just because you won't get away from a safety at that speed. And it doesn't adjust your passing any... I'd drop to 35ish

It's say throw all these points into strength so your spirals are bullets. Other than that pretty solid build



Edited by OklahomaWolf on Apr 14, 2022 10:47:35
 
reddogrw
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Originally posted by OklahomaWolf
Tight spiral Is at 17 I'd relocate atleast 5 or so points somewhere else. Pro level you'll get a few ints just because doubt throwing 17 into tight spiral will lower INT's but worth a try

I ran 2 QBs to test them out deep passer out performed pocket QB, both had an issue with Interception in higher level games... it's like the Bort gods want to see the ball change possessions


pro level stats are worthless - too many shitty teams tbh

look at WL if you want to see a league with all competitive games
 
reddogrw
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Thanks for the input. Would you mind sharing the build on the QB in this thread? If not, how about just str/conf/pq%/pd%? Obv it does help to having a top2 OC in the game on hood.

And agreed OC and offense has a large impact, my premise is that the qb build has an impact as well and it isn't all just the degradation of OC ability at high levels.


yes - tom and I work well together - build is skewed a little because of the decline season - here are the #'s with adjusting for that

Physical Attributes
Strength: 96.13
Speed: 64.07
Agility: 84.26
Jumping: 10
Stamina: 55.33
Vision: 101.2
Confidence: 64.26

Throwing: 106.2 +55
Carrying: 22.26


3 PQ, 1 PD

9 in TS and PF, can't remember if 7 or 9 in PP

nothing in QR

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4755198&playoffs=0
Edited by reddogrw on Apr 14, 2022 11:00:02
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by reddogrw
60 speed is the least amount of speed I would want on my QB

Speed and Agility help the QB move around in the pocket, drop back faster, avoid sacks, etc.


Just highlighting for this thread that I 100% agree with red here.
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by reddogrw
yes - tom and I work well together - build is skewed a little because of the decline season - here are the #'s with adjusting for that

Physical Attributes
Strength: 96.13
Speed: 64.07
Agility: 84.26
Jumping: 10
Stamina: 55.33
Vision: 101.2
Confidence: 64.26

Throwing: 106.2 +55
Carrying: 22.26


3 PQ, 1 PD

9 in TS and PF, can't remember if 7 or 9 in PP

nothing in QR

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4755198&playoffs=0


Thanks red.

-The 84 agility is interesting. Do you think it made a tangible difference in movement vs 60-70?
-Glad to see you/Tomcic are men of culture who hate stupid quick read...
-What are your general thoughts on pump-fake at the WL level? Trigger often enough to be worth it, or not particularly?
-Curious if you ran heart of a champion on him or not?

 
88Spam
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Building pretty/efficient dots has nothing to do with understanding the sim and what's optimal, honestly.

First, can we not pretend that 72 strength = 20 strength?

I ask you this, if every WL QB last season already had 90+ strength and 15%+ pass distance AE (and they did), and if that is the sweetest build there is, why was there only 1 QB out of 12 that had more TD's than INT's?

I have personally and anecdotally OC'd teams in this sim in WL with the same offense and the same supporting personnel, but went from a confidence 3rd qb (#1 WL offense, WL passing title leader) to a strength qb the following season (more INT's, less tds, less pts) then back mid-season to the original confidence guy (less INT's, more pts, same offense, same other dots).


The fact is, pressure and moral spiral are the causes of most interceptions, not your pass quality getting ruined by pass distance modifiers...


To be fair… The QB TD-Int ratio is because of the build. It’s purely coordinating and play calling.

But if you can get a build like that now and make it work then that’s all that matters.
The build obviously isn’t bad. Minus the non needed high amount of carrying.
Could use those 26 sps to get agility up and even some into strength. I think you’re underestimating strength here.

 
reddogrw
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Thanks red.

-The 84 agility is interesting. Do you think it made a tangible difference in movement vs 60-70?
-Glad to see you/Tomcic are men of culture who hate stupid quick read...
-What are your general thoughts on pump-fake at the WL level? Trigger often enough to be worth it, or not particularly?
-Curious if you ran heart of a champion on him or not?



fakes (Catch Fake, Juke, Pump Fake) seem to get receivers open more than anything else in the game
 
Theo Wizzago
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So much to cover... probably most of it already covered by others who are likely better than I am at building these things... but, as an OC and former scout, I can at least give you input on what I have seen and what's worked well (and what hasn't).

#1 "Favored SA's (since the favor bonus itself doesn't get diminishing returns) can be worth it pumped higher than meta"

Not completely true. All SA's have diminishing returns above 10 but, like stacking, it's mostly that the %'s seem to grow bigger the higher you take it. So 11 isn't terrible but 19 is (as far as value goes per SP spent). That said, it's likely the bonus SA's get the exact same treatment as regular (or penalty) SA's do as far as diminishing returns go... but, you don't see it as bad because of the bonus. So, example; A 10 in Pocket Presence vs a 10 in Tight Spiral. As a bonus SA, Tight Spiral would have the higher base number to work from (due to bonus)... so maybe a 60 vs a 50 (for PP)? So at 11 in each, apply identical penalties but due to bonus maybe 56 (PP) vs a 68 (TS) now? All of this is just imagery to show how it is likely different for bonus vs normal SA's. Maybe at 12 now PP is 59 while TS is now 72. With each subsequent higher lever, you'll get less and less (much like stacking works) added on to the SA but the bonus will always keep ahead of the non-bonus SA. Hope that helps explain that.

Originally posted by Dr. E
Way back, the season GLB broke, I had been discussing a bug report with Support. One response I got from them was from Bort concerning speed. He said because of the QB's speed I the pass quality is taking a hit, suggested the SA to reduce that. So, IMHO, keep speed low.


Dr. E covered this a bit but I'll expand. The more Speed and Agility the QB has, the more likely it is they're moving when they throw. Throwing while moving is a penalty to pass accuracy and quality. Two things you can do. #1 is the SA 'On The Run'... yes, it's a penalty to both Deep and Pocket passers but it's worth having if you push speed and agility up. #2 is to not get crazy with Speed and Agility. I find that Speed 30-50 is just fine for a QB with 40 being a great middle number. Fast enough to drop back well but not so much your QB is always dancing in the pocket. Agility, since it works WITH speed to cause Qb movement, can be higher if speed is lower. Great for Turn The Shoulder if you go that way... and is does help with throwing accuracy. I tend to get my agility to around 40-50 with my PQB's and it works fine. I don't think the bonus to pass accuracy from Agility is all that great... just a little bit better. Would love to know if anyone built a QB with 90 agility and if they saw a huge difference in completion % but I'd bet against that being a truth.

Originally posted by Kenshinzen
5. +27.75% PQ, +11 PP, +13 TS


Love this here. PQ is the #1 thing for any QB. I tend to like Pocket passers better because of the penalties Bort has put in on distance for passing and kicking accuracy. The longer the throw (or kick) the more likely it won't be on target. High strength probably helps against that but not enough to make it worth really pursuing. 88-99 strength is plenty IMHO. Due to defenders and defenses I've seen I can tell you that most QB's do NOT have enough time to sit in the pocket and wait for deep routes to get open. DB's have either matching speed to receivers or enough speed that it takes a while before the receiver is clear enough to warrant a toss his way. By that time the QB is likely either sacked or under great pressure which screws the accuracy anyways.
Fakes are the great equalizer here... both QB fakes (like pump or lookoff) and receiver fakes like 'Catch Fake' will get you more open targets than high QB Strength or other skills.

Lastly, you have Confidence at only 88 and Vision at only 93 in your end build. I would shoot higher on both. High 90's for Vision and at least 90 for Confidence. Vision will serve you in both passing accuracy and the ability to find open receivers... and NOT throw into double or triple coverage's. Confidence will not only protect you from all the AOI defensive dots you'll be facing but also give you a bonus to your ability to complete passes. However the BIG bonus I've seen with high Confidence QB's is, when coupled with Clutch VA, just totally visible in those late game winning drives or when a 3rd or 4th down is desperately needed to work. I have seen it with my own eyes so often I know when a QB has high confidence and Clutch working together just by watching the replays and/or the final drive of a game.

Lastly, Quick Read. TBPH it totally depends on the OC. I have no trouble with it myself and love it on my QB's because they're less likely to get stuck too long on any receiver and it gives them a shot at finding an open receiver faster... which is great against these WL defenses and defenders. But... I can easily see some OC's hating it because it does make setting progressions a lot harder. You just gotta think, not only faster, but realize that QR means your QB will likely look at each receiver twice in their route... so timing the breaks and such becomes critical to the play's success. Again... I don't see it as evil but I get it why some OC's hate it.

That's about all I got for you. Hope all this info helps you make a great Pocket QB.
Edited by Theo Wizzago on Apr 14, 2022 13:40:03
 
RyanCane26
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I think you may be overly concerned about the morale death spiral. I think most interceptions are due to throwing in to double, triple coverage (whether it’s first or fifth), not due to being in the morale dumps

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/game.pl?game_id=3088740 Asau’s QB’s morale was still mid 90s when he threw his 5th INT of the game
 
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