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Forum > FAQ's, Player Guides and Newbie Help > Why doesn't every Olinemen have 15%+15%+12% hb% at a minimum?
WiSeIVIaN
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It seems to me that all olinemen do on every play of every game is hold block vs break block battle rolls. Even a 3rd HB% piece gives +3% to all attributes/SA's for the purpose of the hold block roll, which is very large.

I think a reasonable case can be made that 15%+15%+15%+12% = 27.75% HB% is optimal actually...

To those of you who do not have at a minimum triple stacked 25.5% HB% on your O-Lineman, I genuinely ask: why u do dis?

 
Kenshinzen
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For my OT I prefer 10 Foundation but other than this, I agree with the other 3 be HB%
 
POOPERDOG7
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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4783273
not done yet but 25% plus HB, same as what ken said, will be top notch.
Most oline doing this or trying.
 
sunder B
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Originally posted by POOPERDOG7
Most oline doing this or trying.



You would be shocked at how many O-lineman only have 22.5 % Hold block, and I've even seen some with just 15%

As far as the original question, I do think the return on investment for a 4th HB% just isn't there. I think for a LOT, protector is a good value to put with 25.5% Hold block. Other O-lineman and Pancake at end of tree is probably a better option than the extra HB% from a 4th piece.

Lets not forget that most O-line are getting Aura and Pummel and mixing them into AEQ or CEQ is a good option, but all of that can be done with 3 5% Hold block pieces, which by the way are some of the easiest ones to shop for in the store.
Edited by sunder B on Apr 11, 2022 16:37:04
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by sunder B

You would be shocked at how many O-lineman only have 22.5 % Hold block, and I've even seen some with just 15%

As far as the original question, I do think the return on investment for a 4th HB% just isn't there. I think for a LOT, protector is a good value to put with 25.5% Hold block. Other O-lineman and Pancake at end of tree is probably a better option than the extra HB% from a 4th piece.

Lets not forget that most O-line are getting Aura and Pummel and mixing them into AEQ or CEQ is a good option, but all of that can be done with 3 5% Hold block pieces, which by the way are some of the easiest ones to shop for in the store.


Let's not forget, that you don't need AE to CE to get 10 in a SA. On a regular SA, +6 from AE is worth 24 SP. For end of tree SA (like protector) it's worth 30 SP.


I would be satisfied if everyone got their HB% to 25.5% but mathematically it's basically impossible to calculate that the 2.25% incremental on the 4th piece is worth less than 30 SP for the purposes of the hold block roll.

Edited by WiSeIVIaN on Apr 11, 2022 17:27:50
 
RyanCane26
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Not that I disagree but devil's advocate, from a run blocking perspective only.. is holding the block the most important thing?
 
Novus
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
It seems to me that all olinemen do on every play of every game is hold block vs break block battle rolls. Even a 3rd HB% piece gives +3% to all attributes/SA's for the purpose of the hold block roll, which is very large.

I think a reasonable case can be made that 15%+15%+15%+12% = 27.75% HB% is optimal actually...

To those of you who do not have at a minimum triple stacked 25.5% HB% on your O-Lineman, I genuinely ask: why u do dis?



1st Piece: +15% Hold Block
2nd Piece: +7.5% Hold Block (+22.5% Total)
3rd Piece: +3.75% Hold Block (+26.25% Total)

For my 3rd piece, would I rather have +3.75% in Hold Block, or would I rather get a head start on a vital Special Ability? I used to pick the +3.75% in Hold Block. Then I got tired of my O-line dots sucking.
 
Bluesman
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Originally posted by sunder B

You would be shocked at how many O-lineman only have 22.5 % Hold block, and I've even seen some with just 15%

As far as the original question, I do think the return on investment for a 4th HB% just isn't there. I think for a LOT, protector is a good value to put with 25.5% Hold block. Other O-lineman and Pancake at end of tree is probably a better option than the extra HB% from a 4th piece.

Lets not forget that most O-line are getting Aura and Pummel and mixing them into AEQ or CEQ is a good option, but all of that can be done with 3 5% Hold block pieces, which by the way are some of the easiest ones to shop for in the store.

Hmmm I am one of those that usually only do a 2 hb% using the 3rd for pummel or so but i usually go with a 3aeq build unless I get real lucky when shopping and get some pcs real quick.

Question is it really worth it to do a 3rd hb% pc since it is only worth 3.5% instead of a sa like pummel where you thene won't have to put so many sk pts in pummel to get it to 10?
 
nevermind1991
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Originally posted by RyanCane26
Not that I disagree but devil's advocate, from a run blocking perspective only.. is holding the block the most important thing?


Exactly what I was thinking! Pro/WL OLine focus is primarily run blocking, passing is a lot of quick hitters, flats etc. Other factors also contribute to successfully holding a block.
 
psi
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Pancake AEQ > 3rd % piece imho, since its prerequisite is kinda garbage and valueless you're saving on both an end-of-tree SA & the one before it. CE to round out other SAs
Edited by psi on Apr 11, 2022 18:34:49
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by psi
Pancake AEQ > 3rd % piece imho, since its prerequisite is kinda garbage and valueless you're saving on both an end-of-tree SA & the one before it. CE to round out other SAs


Again, you are comparing spending 30 SP on pancake vs +3% hb%. There is no way on earth, mathematically, that +3% hb% is worth less than 30 SP's for the purposes of the hold block roll.

The formula for the hold block roll is (a*strength+b*Blocking+cdef*other attributes in the score, etc), then that number gets an RNG which is likely a +/- % multiplied range.

a & b & cdef are Borts weighting of each attribute which we don't know, but it doesn't actually matter for our justification here, due to the transitive property of mathematics

hold block% literally takes that whole hold block battle roll equation and gives it 3% boost. This means, for the purpose of the hold block roll, 3% hold block effectively gives you +3% strength, +3% blocking, +3% agility, etc. (all inclusive of equipment and SA bonuses).

On a 160 strength, 100 blocking olineman, we are talking about +4.8 strength and +3 blocking for the purpose of the hold block roll, due to +3% hb%. Assuming you 8-capped both, that is literally 7.8*8=62.4 SP, just from those 2 attributes. Other attributes are obv in the hb roll, and you are effectively boosting any SA's as well which had an effect on that roll.

+% AE is incredibly overpowered, and is literally the fact on which 92 seasons of WL titles are built. Some in this game still trying to argue against it, is frankly insane.
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by RyanCane26
Not that I disagree but devil's advocate, from a run blocking perspective only.. is holding the block the most important thing?


So this is a good question, but honestly it's a BETTER question for pass blocking than run blocking imho.

If we are talking about O-linemen run blocking, there are three things that matter...

1. Getting to a block
2. Holding the block
3. Pushing/Pancaking

#1 really isn't a problem for olinemen generally on run plays I don't think. This is because on inside runs, defenders don't avoid blocks due to sim programming, and on outside runs it really comes down to FB/TE sealing the outside defenders for the most part. Movement IS I think the black eye on hb% since player positioning is bigtime for hold vs break block battle rolls, but as I stated this is much more of an issue on pass plays, especially off the edge.

#2 is what hb% is all about. There is an aspect of movement between hold block vs break block battle rolls, but the way the game is programmed, defenders move laterally a lot more when pass rushing as opposed to run blocking, so there's a lot less "bounce" on run plus.

#3 As you probably know, your dot only gets to attempt a pancake roll if you hard-win the hold vs break block battle roll. Also in order to move a defender backwards you need to win the block battle roll. hb% is really the key here not strength itself (well strength is key to actual pancake roll, but not to push-back.)

============

Just noting that I think on a bFB which has short time holding blocks, or a bTE which needs to move to seal, is a bigger question on how many hb% AE is needed. I'd still lean towards wanting +25.5% on those guys, but am willing to admit the 4-stack probably doesn't make sense.
 
psi
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Well, VAs give additional hb%, you have to weigh it more like relative than absolute values, so suppose if on a given roll with VAs considered you are receiving 37% HB bonus, your real world benefit of adding an extra 3% is the difference between 1.4 / 1.37 which would be a 2.19% improvement on your roll. You sound like you know 30 SP granted to a build isn't just worth 30 SP in a vacuum, especially if it's used in the build process to reach caps/goals early, and that's just what SP that goes to skill points is, freely usable earlier if they aren't going to be used later. Plus, you can have higher attributes like speed/agility to simply be in position better, and being a certain amount of fast does things in the game that aren't in a roll calc. What is more successful overall? It can't be calculated. I feel like you could absolutely be right, but it's silly to think it's clear cut.

But plenty of people don't go SA heavy anyway and are elite, so it depends what you're trying to do. No one's gonna fault an elite OL with 3 +attribute VAs, barely any situational VAs, and only like two core SAs one of which is Get Low.


e: I think I legit had a brain shart thinking about another game altogether when I mentioned spending SP earlier, never mind that, I'm tired, rest of the point remains lol. Why would I want to maximize a roll by going the literal less effective way to do so as you described (30SP isn't even worth 2.1% on the attributes)? I wouldn't, your way is obv better to get a high roll, but what ends up with a better performing dot is unclear
Edited by psi on Apr 11, 2022 21:53:30
Edited by psi on Apr 11, 2022 21:51:32
 
ProfessionalKop
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i always do 3x HB%, SA for my 4th piece and CE in an SA. or flip CE and AEQ piece.
 


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