Warrior General Games

If an offense disproportionately runs schemes that pull blockers (in lieu of more inside or off-tackle runs)--and the guards and OT have Pull Spec--wouldn't it make sense to put more into RBP, since the technique roll is at least 75% of max, and the players being blocked are probably going to have relatively low BRB (LBs, safeties, etc)?

In watching replays, I keep seeing really safe blocks from o-linemen, but not nearly as many cakes as I might have expected, so it's got me wondering if o-lines that disproportionately pull have maybe overlooked this or built too much toward inside runs.

I know everyone says RBP is weak, but am I overthinking this? As long as players aren't liabilities on inside runs, an extra 5-10 RBP in an OT should absolutely blow up a LB or safety--because that OT is almost certainly not going to lose that blocking roll.

Originally posted by Oofty
If an offense disproportionately runs schemes that pull blockers (in lieu of more inside or off-tackle runs)--and the guards and OT have Pull Spec--wouldn't it make sense to put more into RBP, since the technique roll is at least 75% of max, and the players being blocked are probably going to have relatively low BRB (LBs, safeties, etc)?

In watching replays, I keep seeing really safe blocks from o-linemen, but not nearly as many cakes as I might have expected, so it's got me wondering if o-lines that disproportionately pull have maybe overlooked this or built too much toward inside runs.

I know everyone says RBP is weak, but am I overthinking this? As long as players aren't liabilities on inside runs, an extra 5-10 RBP in an OT should absolutely blow up a LB or safety--because that OT is almost certainly not going to lose that blocking roll.

From a game play perspective they are investing I'm sure it's just that the necessary points for speed agility footwork and lead block awareness necessitate taking it form other areas.

That said as far as football is concerned this is actually one Bort and Cdog have 100% right.

Contrary to popular myth pulling guards do not "blow up" linebackers and safeties at the 2nd level (unless that defender has an epic fail of both reading the play and discipline) - call it die by the sword live by the sword for GLB2- because while the line blocking in GLB2 is really not well modeled (or anywhere else for that matter) they have the pancake/reverse panckae ratio mostly correct for pulling lineman. About the only thing they have wrong is applying a heart / morale penalty for ending up on your butt while pulling. This has to do with leverage and balance. (The actual concepts not the SA and ability). Most video games from Madden to some of the other football simulations out there are modeling O-line interactions in the tackle box by compensating (or actually over-compensating) for the weight differential between offensive lineman and defensive players, that's a good proxy but it's not actually correct. This also results in a pulling guards totally detonating linebackers at the 2nd level when they pull - this doesn't actually happen often in real life, the reverse - the offensive lineman falling is actually far more common , actually correct, and probably a successful seal block.

Go all the way back to Vince Lombardi and the Lombardi or Lambeau Sweep. His right guard was a now Hall of Fame Jerry Kramer. Kramer is actually the single most important key to the Packer sweep, not only is he pulling but he's actually the one on strongside runs who is deciding if this is an off-tackle play or an outside run. If the defense under-persues Kramer turns back towards the line and blocks the linebacker at the 10 O'Clock position, if the defense has over-persued Kramer goes outside and kicks out the linebacker at the 2 O'Clock positon. Paul Horning the HB then reads which direction Kramer goes and makes a cut inside/outside based on what Kramer has done. It's an old single wing concept (1910's and 20's football) that Lombardi re-updated for a then modern offense, long after teams had switched to a double wing concept. [Side note - if you watch the Ravens today you'll see some really old single wing concepts re-updated for the modern spread].

Jerry Kramer was considered the #1 Offensive Guard for most of that decade - where does he end up more often than not - on his butt or stomach at the end of the play. That's because Kramer's job or the job of any pulling guard isn't to pancake the LB - it's to engage him as far away from the ball carrier to make the rushing lane as large as possible. He also doesn't need to hold that block for 3 seconds or drive the defender back he simply needs to obstruct for a second and the play will be long by him. To engage first (not letting the defender move around him) he's going to give up the leverage he would have inline reach out and in general move his center of gravity further and away from the mid-line of his body. For a heavy man that's going to leave him unbalanced and more likely to go down.

Modern day, Ali Marpet from Tampa, one of the best all-time draft combine physical measurements for a guard and is considered one of the games top guards if not the #1 guard. Pound for pound in-line absolutely mauls DT's at the point of attack, outside when he pulls still very fast very atheltic - ends up on his belly alot. Again his center of gravity is further out because he's engaging further away and simply trying to clear as much space as possible. It is totally different than when he's in the proper stance two steps legs slightly more than shoulder width apart eyes up shoulders in low butt in the a seat in line monster - outside monster as well but you don't measure that with pancakes.

Usually where you see a defender at the 2nd level pancaked - it's because he messed up badly not because the offensive lineman made a great play - (though the TV crew I'm sure will report it that way), first getting out of position and then a discipline fail. Whether its a 1 or a 2 gap scheme he's supposed to be peeking at the line determining if there is a pulling lineman, he forgot and as a result is probably badly out of position to make a play. Then a discipline fail to try to out right lunge or dive and overcompensate for being beaten badly on the initial play - then yes the offensive linemans weight and power are enough to drive him the rest of the way into the ground - however if he's just beaten and not badly on the initial action the lineman should be the initiator of contact which means again center of gravity for the Offensive lineman out further and technically outside of his body center mass meaning he will eventually fall over.

Lots of stupid blocking issues with GLB2 , pulling lineman not racking up pancakes isn't one of them, except for the stupidity of the morale hit because I guarantee ever pulling guard from Kramer to Marpet doesn't give a fig about ending up on their belly on a pull or sweep if their HB is 5 yards downfield before contact.

Interesting question. We are building a power running team with a S* HB. My first plan was to build 1 Super* pulling tackle, 1 Super* pulling guard, 1 Super* center and 1 super* blocking FB. We will still run up the middle a ton though.

However, after looking at the all the plays, the tackle only pulls on 6 TOTAL plays. 3 of those plays are from 3 WR sets, which take my Super* lead blocking FB out of the equation. So I think pulling Super* tackles are a waste.

We are instead going to build 2 Super* pulling guards (they pull on around 20 total plays, with 6 or so plays having both guards pull). But they will not have very high RBP. The problem with pulling guards is that you also have to spend SAs on quickness/footwork/speed and lead block awareness, where as non-pulling guards, you can basically ignore quickness/speed/LBA (you need footwork to help with pass protection). You would also need decent snap reaction to get out in front.

Basically, there are way to many skills, other than RBP, that need some decent investing into.

I guess if you ONLY run outside, you might be able to pull it off. That would allow you to lower your RBT and up your RBP, since your pulling linemen would be taking on LB/Safties and winning with lower RBT. But then you would be easy to game plan against.

Just be a man and run into middle all the time

Originally posted by Cybertron
Interesting question. We are building a power running team with a S* HB. My first plan was to build 1 Super* pulling tackle, 1 Super* pulling guard, 1 Super* center and 1 super* blocking FB. We will still run up the middle a ton though.

However, after looking at the all the plays, the tackle only pulls on 6 TOTAL plays. 3 of those plays are from 3 WR sets, which take my Super* lead blocking FB out of the equation. So I think pulling Super* tackles are a waste.

We are instead going to build 2 Super* pulling guards (they pull on around 20 total plays, with 6 or so plays having both guards pull). But they will not have very high RBP. The problem with pulling guards is that you also have to spend SAs on quickness/footwork/speed and lead block awareness, where as non-pulling guards, you can basically ignore quickness/speed/LBA (you need footwork to help with pass protection). You would also need decent snap reaction to get out in front.

Basically, there are way to many skills, other than RBP, that need some decent investing into.

I guess if you ONLY run outside, you might be able to pull it off. That would allow you to lower your RBT and up your RBP, since your pulling linemen would be taking on LB/Safties and winning with lower RBT. But then you would be easy to game plan against.


Interested in collaborating on this? While I've taken a break, I made it my mission to build some really solid d-linemen over the years, and I'm kinda interested in getting back into things.

Also, any interest in a S* FB? Could be interesting..

What are we doing? Something dangerous and fun? I'm in

So, the problem with power blocking is that when it engages it creates a 'push' between you and your defender.

So while this in theory leads to more pancakes, it also leads to more defenders being pushed free of a blocker right as a HB approaches. And unfortunately, no matter how strong you are, when you push them - you get pushed back too just as hard. Meaning you are now moving away from the guy you need to block and he has a free shot at the HB.


Works the same way in pass blocking, sometimes even pushing the defender out of your reach or pushing you out of position to make the block. It causes sacks on its own even if the guy your blocking isn't that great.






It's detrimental to let that interaction happen at all as an offensive lineman.

Originally posted by Oofty

Interested in collaborating on this? While I've taken a break, I made it my mission to build some really solid d-linemen over the years, and I'm kinda interested in getting back into things.

Also, any interest in a S* FB? Could be interesting..


Thanks but all our collaborating is done on the public forums. Leads to great discussion about the game for all to consume. It helps the little guys who are not part of the elitist GLB network.

And GE's army is a closed group on a mission. What is that mission? It shall be revealed soon.

Originally posted by Raid
So, the problem with power blocking is that when it engages it creates a 'push' between you and your defender.

So while this in theory leads to more pancakes, it also leads to more defenders being pushed free of a blocker right as a HB approaches. And unfortunately, no matter how strong you are, when you push them - you get pushed back too just as hard. Meaning you are now moving away from the guy you need to block and he has a free shot at the HB.

Are you sure about this? What I've seen is when you have a good Tech and Power rating you grab and push a defender back a certain distance, creating a gap for the runner.

I think when people are "pushed free" it's because the Tech rating is not better than the defender's PRT/BRB so they can't hold on and use their Power to push the defender out of the way.

Originally posted by Ace of Spades 7

Are you sure about this? What I've seen is when you have a good Tech and Power rating you grab and push a defender back a certain distance, creating a gap for the runner.

I think when people are "pushed free" it's because the Tech rating is not better than the defender's PRT/BRB so they can't hold on and use their Power to push the defender out of the way.


Well, I can say that I haven't built a lot of o-linemen. But that my S* OT I tried this on was literally doing all this when power was slightly above tech, he's been fixed now to lean mostly tech.

But on the defensive side of things, it's how I make run stoppers with at or less than 50 break run block - force a big push away and recover with balance to make the tackle - been doing that for a long time now.

Originally posted by Raid
So, the problem with power blocking is that when it engages it creates a 'push' between you and your defender.

So while this in theory leads to more pancakes, it also leads to more defenders being pushed free of a blocker right as a HB approaches. And unfortunately, no matter how strong you are, when you push them - you get pushed back too just as hard. Meaning you are now moving away from the guy you need to block and he has a free shot at the HB.


Works the same way in pass blocking, sometimes even pushing the defender out of your reach or pushing you out of position to make the block. It causes sacks on its own even if the guy your blocking isn't that great.






It's detrimental to let that interaction happen at all as an offensive lineman.

Was talking to Bo about this earlier, but power is useful for a lot more than just pancaking the other guy. Per the patch notes from Dec 10, 2017 - "Blocking tech now has diminishing returns for each consecutive roll won." This means that even builds with very high tech cannot continuously hold blocks. A good rushing team needs to accept that blocks are inherently unsustainable. Thus, I think the more important thing to focus on is being able to reengage lost blocks as quickly as possible, since reengaging the block resets the diminishing returns. Run block power minimizes defender push and separation when they do break the block, allowing you to be always in their face to immediately reengage, and it also prevents you from getting knocked down on losses, which is the worst thing that can ever happen to you as a blocker. There are other stats like balance, as Raid mentioned, that help with recovering from lost blocks as well, but run block power is additionally useful for creating better rushing lanes, preventing blocker-runner collisions, and actively pancaking defenders.

I haven't really been able to test, but does anyone know if stats like footwork and quickness (on blockers) help prevent defenders from moving laterally when they win their blocks?

Footwork definitely helps blockers to slide in front of defenders.

As for Raid’s comment on power blocking. I don’t think the separation comes from a blockers high power blocking. High power blocking results in either a pancake or an engage and move the defender back....like Get Low SA.

The separation comes from the defenders Hold Ground. A high Hold Ground allows the defender to push the blocker away and move around him....or reverse pancake.

Originally posted by Cybertron
Footwork definitely helps blockers to slide in front of defenders.

As for Raid’s comment on power blocking. I don’t think the separation comes from a blockers high power blocking. High power blocking results in either a pancake or an engage and move the defender back....like Get Low SA.

The separation comes from the defenders Hold Ground. A high Hold Ground allows the defender to push the blocker away and move around him....or reverse pancake.

I mean, I literally started building my OT S* as a power-first blocker and ran into these problems... a lot... but if you wanna try it out too that's up to you. I didn't finish the build out that way so maybe I just had some bad runs of things and got a bad set of info.